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Lately I have had a newfound respect for Marth and the war of shadows and after playing through the game again and again Shadow Dragon has dethroned Radian Dawn as my favorite Fire Emblem game (I Always thought this would be one of the last games to do it). While I could talk about everything I love about this game for hours and hours I wanted to focus on a few things first being Marth in Shadow Dragon versus Marth literally everywhere else.

Marth in Shadow Dragon felt similar to Leif for me, and while I can't confidently say Marth is a better character than Leif I find them pretty similar and keep in mind im talking about his depiction in Shadow Dragon. The Altean Prince faced many challenges at a young age and the dialogue tells us quite a few times throughout the game that Marth was filled with anger towards the other kingdoms and nations that ruined his peace and destroyed his family. One Example of this is right at the beginning of the game (Skipping the prologue of course).

“Marth, prince of Altea, was lucky. Though Doluna took from him his kingdom and all but a handful of knights, they could not take his life. Marth lived, and made it to the eastern isle of Talys. Talys was a small border kingdom, with no grand order of knights to boast of, but its king selflessly gave Marth use of the isle’s eastern fortress. And as he saw the boy shake with anger and grief, he also gave wise counsel:
“Prince Marth,” he said, “I do not doubt you love your sister something great. But you must be patient…time is on your side. If you stay here, and grow stronger, a time will come when you can help her.”
So Marth stayed in Talys, protected by its kind people, and the years went by…” -Prologue

and again,

Marth:
“Today, there was this commoner… She mentioned Grust was divided about the war. Some of its people wanted to fight with Altea, she said…Ever since I lost my father and kingdom, I’ve held nothing but hate in my heart for Gra and Grust…but not once did I give any thought to what must have been going on in their heads.”

Nyna:
“And now you find your hate for them has been lessened?”

Marth:
“No… the hate remains. I will never forget the pain they inflicted upon me, the rage I felt. Yet now, at least, I can tell you it’s not just hate…Not anymore.”
-Marth talking ti Nyna at the end of chapter 13

While in the first example Marth was a lot younger he continues to display human emotions throughout the game and the second example covers that, also keep in mind that these are only two of the example and there are plenty more. The point is that Marth is a very determined individual who seeks vengeance and the world to be right and stands against the world to make it right. One of my favorite exchanges is between Marth and Malledus in the prologue.

“Sire… You must live. Drink deeply now of these injustices; sip on these slights they serve. Remember them! One day you will lead us back here to avenge the fallen and reclaim Altea in their names!”  -Malledus To Marth in Prologue 3.

And Then Jagen to Marth at the end of the prologue

Marth:
“I am a craven. Powerless to save my sister, to staunch my kingdom’s wounds; to ease my people’s fears…”

Jagen:
“This…was your only recourse, sire. But surely, one day, you will be able to set things right…”

Marth:
“”Surely”? Why do words of such conviction smack so much of uncertainty when spoken? Not surely, Jagen. Assuredly. Gra will pay for their acts. Today, though, allow me to wallow in this pain, to feel every awful twist of it. I never want to forget.”

Jagen:
“Sire…”

Marth:
“I will return, Altea! Your prince will return to you one day!”

Despite what some may say I believe Marth has some very notable character growth in Shadow Dragon, but still displays unrivaled determination even in the end. But my biggest fear about Marth's depictions may be becoming true... I think Marth's only really good depiction outside of SD is Smash Bros (The new one not as much because I'm not the biggest fan of Lowenthal's direction of him), whereas In Other games Marth has become less of a character in my eyes and to being nothing more than the following traits. Kindhearted, humble, and treasures his friends. I REALLY wish at least one of his quotes in heroes talked about how he felt/how he feels about the wrongs that were done to him, they are missing out on some of his best lines. It seems like the trend for other games he is in, like warriors for example, he is just revered by everyone as the legendary hero king and he continues to become what I wish he didn't..... 

...

The template for almost every other lord in the franchise.

I just wanted to know everyone's thoughts on this, because I seldom ever see this brought up (people like to talk about Gaiden Alm VS. SOV Alm more). Do keep in mind that I think New Mystery is also guilty of devolving Marth into a one-note character although that just might be a translation thing).

(Also I was Planning on replaying SD the way Kaga designed fe1 to be played in the first place which means Iron Man! Kaga put all your good units at the beginning because the weaker units you got later were punishment for losing the good ones. I've never played an iron man run on any FE before but I have beaten SD on H5 so if you had any Tips for a H3 Iron man run im about to start I would appreciate it. Tips like who to use, re classing tidbits, and what to forge as I assume an IM run is a very different game than playing any FE normally).

 

 

 

 

 

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10 hours ago, JimmyBeans said:

Despite what some may say I believe Marth has some very notable character growth in Shadow Dragon, but still displays unrivaled determination even in the end. But my biggest fear about Marth's depictions may be becoming true... I think Marth's only really good depiction outside of SD is Smash Bros (The new one not as much because I'm not the biggest fan of Lowenthal's direction of him), whereas In Other games Marth has become less of a character in my eyes and to being nothing more than the following traits. Kindhearted, humble, and treasures his friends. I REALLY wish at least one of his quotes in heroes talked about how he felt/how he feels about the wrongs that were done to him, they are missing out on some of his best lines. It seems like the trend for other games he is in, like warriors for example, he is just revered by everyone as the legendary hero king and he continues to become what I wish he didn't..... 

...

The template for almost every other lord in the franchise.

I just wanted to know everyone's thoughts on this, because I seldom ever see this brought up (people like to talk about Gaiden Alm VS. SOV Alm more). Do keep in mind that I think New Mystery is also guilty of devolving Marth into a one-note character although that just might be a translation thing).

Marth is probably one of the few Lords in the entire franchise who actually has a good reason to fight, and it's one of the most developed characters so far.

i'm not sure about New Mystery since i haven't played it yet, but in the original version for SNES, you could clearly see Marth's development throu Book I and II.

when he started his war against Medeus for revenge, he was filled with hatred and cared mostly about his comrades and his own kingdom.

however, when he ended the conflict with Medeus and Hardin's empire, he did it not only to settle things once and for all, but also for the good of the people from the other nations.

basicly, he followed both Anri and Cornelius footsteps as a worthy descendant.

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Marth's Shadow Dragon depiction is one that I've only ever found compelling on paper, whenever I play through, or even look at these scenes in context by watching the story on youtube they always fall incredibly flat. There are moments of great writing for him, but for every one there are ten where his face appears but he says not a word (or has pointless filler dialogue) and merely gets talked to. Even when he does his face sprite has two emotions, bland scowl, and neutral, and this just lack of emotion in the face often clashes heavily with every seemingly emotional scene. Another issue is a lot of the emotional setup for his character is hidden behind the prologue that only those playing on the easiest difficulty see. Even the CG images fail to capture the emotional state needed and reinforce his depiction as bland in Shadow Dragon, like this CG that is supposed to show  him

On 1/5/2019 at 10:24 PM, JimmyBeans said:

shake with anger and grief,

fe11-marth-looking-back-from-the-ship.pn

Contrast this with Eliwood, who has multiple more expressive face sprites, and CGs that emphasis his emotional state. Even New Mystery does a better job in these regards, upgrading Marth's Neutral face to a full blown smile, and a few CGs that actually reinforce the emotional state that the game claims. As an example Marth witnessing Lorenz's death:

fe12-marth-witnesses-lorenzs-death.png

Plus Shadow Dragon fails to display Marth's most consistent character trait throughout his multiple depictions across games, that his victories were not his alone but thanks to those who fought beside him. It is clear to me that while Shadow Dragon's writer may be a wordsmith, they failed in their depiction of Marth by not understanding the medium they were working with, and showing a different Marth than the one that was written.

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On 1/10/2019 at 9:00 PM, Eltosian Kadath said:

(snip)

You and TC are talking about two separate things.  TC's talking about Marth in terms of words.  You're talking about presentation.  It's possible to acknowledge that Marth is relatively well-written with bad presentation.  Likewise, a certain other rather divisive game in the series does a better job in presentation, which does nothing to save the story.

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On 1/11/2019 at 12:00 AM, Eltosian Kadath said:

Plus Shadow Dragon fails to display Marth's most consistent character trait throughout his multiple depictions across games, that his victories were not his alone but thanks to those who fought beside him. It is clear to me that while Shadow Dragon's writer may be a wordsmith, they failed in their depiction of Marth by not understanding the medium they were working with, and showing a different Marth than the one that was written.

Sorry for the late response my friend, thanks for the reply.

Your post made me curious so I went back and read the script for fe3 both book 1 and book 2 to remind myself how Marth came off as before Shadow Dragon was released, and I didn't find anything of note worth sharing because his lines were nothing but him reacting to what was happening and the usual stuff like "Evil things being done to good people make him sad" in fact in book 2 I'd argue Jagen gets more good lines than Marth which is funny to think about.

My point in this is I don't see Marth's depiction in Shadow Dragon being a change, the only thing I see is some more developed motives, whereas games that came after put a lot more emphasis on the bold line in your post, and IMO made his entire character revolve around how much he appreciates his friends which in turn makes a weaker character.

If there is something I missed please let me know as I wouldn't mind being proven wrong, maybe there is a translation that adds more to him? The one I read was the translation used for the script here at the SF page for fe3.

Also in regards to your statements above I completely agree that presentation in fe7 and fe12 were much better, but I still think the writing was there and that future games should of expanded on what Shadow Dragon had built up.

 

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On 1/14/2019 at 7:35 AM, JimmyBeans said:

 

My point in this is I don't see Marth's depiction in Shadow Dragon being a change, the only thing I see is some more developed motives, whereas games that came after put a lot more emphasis on the bold line in your post, and IMO made his entire character revolve around how much he appreciates his friends which in turn makes a weaker character.

Fair point I was thinking of New Mystery, FEH, and Warrior but here are a few quotes from the Mystery of the Emblem translation seem relevant:

Spoiler

Marth:
Don’t be silly.
It’s only because I had Sheeda that was I able to reach this day.
Things will be more difficult from now onwards.
The seven kingdoms of Akaneia are going to be unified, and everybody is going to hand responsibility to me.
But, such a task I cannot possibly do by myself.
Sheeda, I hope you can help me.
I really need you.

- Final 2-3

 

Hardin:
Hahaha…!
You are so naive, Marth.
I attacked Aritia solely because of my hatred of you.
In the previous war, it was only because you were the descendent of Anri that Nina gave the Emblem to you, and chose you to become the leader of the alliance.
Prince of Light… What nonsense!
If you hadn’t received my support you would have died long ago, so don’t act all big, Marth!!
From that day on, I hated you.
I kept silent for Nina, but I knew I would have to deal with you eventually.
This has nothing to do with this Orb!

- Chapter 20

and possibly relevant

Spoiler

Marth:
I understand.
The bond between siblings cannot be torn so easily.
Princess Minerva, please look up.
You don’t need to worry about Macedonia.
I already left some trusted people to begin its reconstruction.
I hope that you can fight together with us, like in the past.
To crush Hardin’s ambitions, I wish to borrow Macedonia’s and your strength.

- Chapter 9

 

Marth:
Akaneia’s actions were too cold-hearted.
They even had innocent citizens killed.
How can I apologise to the citizens…?
I only bring trouble to everybody…
Perhaps I’m not fit to protect this country.

- Chapter 15

 

Marth:
What should I do…?
How can I save them?
Please tell me, Jeigan.

-Final 2-3

slim picking I know, but even Shadow Dragon's moment of actual writing are few and far between.

On 1/14/2019 at 7:35 AM, JimmyBeans said:

IMO made his entire character revolve around how much he appreciates his friends which in turn makes a weaker character.

I think you are selling this characterization a bit a short. Marth's portrayal in future games is center around him dealing with the impossible burden he places upon himself, and the deep-seated imposter syndrome that comes with that, by relying on and emphasizing the accomplishments of others. Marth is his harshest critic, if someone falls in battle he feels the loss all the more due to the responsibilities of leadership; and when men call him hero king he think not about his own accomplishments, but those of his friends who made him a hero. In this way he turns what would be a crippling weakness in other into one of his greatest strengths. Sorry to continue to drown this in quotes but here are a few that emphasis this point:

Spoiler

Marth:
Though the stories tell of me as a great
hero, it is not so.
There is only so much that I can do by myself.
That much, I know to be true.
The War of Shadows was won with the aid of
comrades who wished for the same future as I.
'Twas not a lone romp across the land.
I realized, whether in peace or war,
I need people I can trust-young, dynamic
soldiers who can support and guide me.

-New Mystery Prologue V


Elice:
Even as we speak, somewhere unknown to us, our peoples' lives are being lost... Marth cannot save those people.

Chris:
Yes, that's true... Even the most excellent of kings is not an omnipotent god. A king is no more than human, and there are limits to the things he can do.

Elice:
Yes. Precisely. Most people realize this and can come to terms with that reality. But Marth cannot do that... He truly thinks that he can save everyone. In war, losing just one companion is unbearable for him... He suppresses his feelings with all his willpower, but I know that inside, his heart breaks and bleeds...
-New Mystery Prologue IV

 

Marth:
Over all the Battles we've fought together, I have come to see my own powerlessness.
As but one, I cannot accomplish anything. Together, we can face everything.
That is why having you at my side gives me courage beyond the telling of it.
I shall continue to fight at your side as long as you will allow me.
I am eternally grateful that we may count on one another.

- FEH Marth: Altean Prince 5 star level 40 conversation
 

Minerva: Yyah! Hah! Haahh!

Marth: Excuse me, Princess Minerva, but the war council is about to convene!

Minerva: Ah! Is it that late already? My apologies, Prince Marth.

Marth: Not at all. But... my, what vigorous training that was! I must admit, I'm a bit jealous! Your martial prowess clearly exceeds my own.

Minerva: Oh no, Prince Marth, it is I who is jealous! You have the power to lead many people! That is truly worthy of jealousy. As for me, I wonder if I'll have what it takes to lead Macedon once it's freed...

Marth: I should think someone like you would have that strength and abundance.

Minerva: It's true that I have plenty of confidence when faced with battle, but beyond that...

Marth: I understand. Ruling a kingdom is no easy task. I know well your feelings of anxiety. I, too, fear I'm sorely lacking when it comes to leading my kingdom.

Minerva: ...You?

Marth: It's true! However... along with my fear, I'm also filled with hope.

Minerva: Hmm... Hope can be powerful, but...

Marth: Even if I'm weak alone, I know I can do anything with my friends' help. If I'm joined by others who share my hopes, we can overcome any obstacle.

Minerva: I'm working toward freeing Macedon, and others have joined me, but... Can our ability to liberate it translate to maintaining a lasting peace?

Marth: I believe it can. Though, of course, I have no real proof on that front...

Minerva: Hmm... I think I may understand my way forward. I must share my vision for Macedon with those who would work with me. And... I must listen to all of their dreams and ideas as well... And if our opinions differ... we'll consider all sides and build from there!

Marth: Right. And by doing so, you'll all be sharing your goals in the fullest sense. ...Seems I was correct: you already have the strength your kingdom needs. And if you have friends to support you, I believe you will use it well.

Minerva: Perhaps. Yet... I mustn't let myself be weakened by overconfidence. Faith in my friends has lost me battles before--and I was left feeling betrayed. I want to consider every angle so nothing like that ever happens again. And by doing so, I will push Macedon toward freedom and peace.

Marth: That sounds more like the Red Dragoon I know! Unwavering as ever. I would love to learn from your strength... Might I... train with you sometime? We can strengthen each other and push toward our shared goals--as friends!

Minerva: It would be my honor! Now... shall we make our way to the war council? We shouldn't miss our opportunity to help shape our future, right?

Marth: Right! That's the spirit!

-Fire Emblem Warriors Marth/Minerva Support

 

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Marth in Shadow Dragon is one of my favorite character and its a shame people didn't bother to learn about it. He's sassy, he's arrogant, and most of all he's motivated by revenge. THe only person he specifically notes to respect is Hardin, and thats in part because he considered him as an equal. And then you get into Wooden Chariot where after success into success, Marth arrogance hits its peak.... and a simple villager on opposing side called him out. Afterwards he realized the war isn't simply about his revenge and showing off, and he realized his responsibility as a pricne but he never quite lost his sarcastic and sassy side. Its beautifully done with how little material they have to work with

 

Its a shame Japan didn't like this Marth so by New Mystery Marth took 9000 level of humbleness.

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20 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Fair point I was thinking of New Mystery, FEH, and Warrior but here are a few quotes from the Mystery of the Emblem translation seem relevant:

I think you are selling this characterization a bit a short. Marth's portrayal in future games is center around him dealing with the impossible burden he places upon himself, and the deep-seated imposter syndrome that comes with that, by relying on and emphasizing the accomplishments of others. Marth is his harshest critic, if someone falls in battle he feels the loss all the more due to the responsibilities of leadership; and when men call him hero king he think not about his own accomplishments, but those of his friends who made him a hero. In this way he turns what would be a crippling weakness in other into one of his greatest strengths. Sorry to continue to drown this in quotes but here are a few that emphasis this point:

 

I've looked over these quotes many times now and I will agree that they are relevant even though they are, as you said, slim pickings but what your New Mystery quote along with me thinking back over New Mystery which I just recently finished has got me thinking..... And I'll concede and agree that fe12 does a good job with him, thinking about it now it would be a shame for us to see him progress in fe11 just to go back to that way in fe12 in which the bold in your post fits him well after what hes been through. I still have one issue though, and while my issue with New Mystery Marth has lessened I still feel like he is a flat character in his future depictions, and I think there are better ways to portray him without devolving his growth.

Warriors: He could have his viewpoint challenged more, or challenge others, I feel like in that game when he shows up he is just revered as the legend that he is and that his advice and viewpoint is always right and that anyone who disagrees is wrong. This issue isn't unique to Marth though, and this might be a larger issue the games story faces than Marth's depiction.

The games story would of benefited from more aggressive/cold lords the series has to offer, if we had relevant characters like Alm, Leif, Ephraim, Hector, or Ike we would of had a better split of ideology when it came to events like Darios's betrayal rather than everyone ganging up on Leo who offered a fair point and everyone else starting with Marth and Rowan being shown in the right for wanting to save Darios even though he is evil. If we had a more even split and had someone who was built up and as revered as Marth challenging his way of thinking and showing both the qualities and flaws of him as a character it would be so good for both him and the game. Though as I said this is a larger problem I see with the game and not just Marth, it pains me to see one of my all-time favorite characters feel so flat.

Heroes: The games doesn't revolve around Marth nor has the time to characterize him, but if they made one his base quotes or his unit info quotes mention how he was, how much anger he felt, or anything that reflected his progression through the games would show us more of a complex character behind his kind, optimistic self without going backwards on his character growth.

In the end I'll state a second time that I concede to fe12 Marth and will agree with you that I sold it short, but even with the bold in mind, I still can't help but find his depictions after that very weak, something still bothers me about it.... Maybe it's just because he is shown to not have flaws, which fe12 actually does, and his character feels like it's grown to point where he is just perfect and always right (maybe it's just the voice). There is a huge crowd of people in the FE community that say Marth is a boring character, and I feel that this is part to do with it. Thoughts?

On 1/6/2019 at 10:13 AM, Fenreir said:

Marth is probably one of the few Lords in the entire franchise who actually has a good reason to fight, and it's one of the most developed characters so far.

i'm not sure about New Mystery since i haven't played it yet, but in the original version for SNES, you could clearly see Marth's development throu Book I and II.

when he started his war against Medeus for revenge, he was filled with hatred and cared mostly about his comrades and his own kingdom.

however, when he ended the conflict with Medeus and Hardin's empire, he did it not only to settle things once and for all, but also for the good of the people from the other nations.

basicly, he followed both Anri and Cornelius footsteps as a worthy descendant.

14 hours ago, JSND Alter Dragon Boner said:

Marth in Shadow Dragon is one of my favorite character and its a shame people didn't bother to learn about it. He's sassy, he's arrogant, and most of all he's motivated by revenge. THe only person he specifically notes to respect is Hardin, and thats in part because he considered him as an equal. And then you get into Wooden Chariot where after success into success, Marth arrogance hits its peak.... and a simple villager on opposing side called him out. Afterwards he realized the war isn't simply about his revenge and showing off, and he realized his responsibility as a pricne but he never quite lost his sarcastic and sassy side. Its beautifully done with how little material they have to work with

 

Its a shame Japan didn't like this Marth so by New Mystery Marth took 9000 level of humbleness.

I agree, rather than being thrown into the conflict and being the "heroic guy" who fights for whats right he starts the game already deeply involved and has one goal. Take back his kingdom. I loved seeing his viewpoints be challenged throughout the game, especially with this quote I had in the OP

Marth:
“No… the hate remains. I will never forget the pain they inflicted upon me, the rage I felt. Yet now, at least, I can tell you it’s not just hate…Not anymore.”
-Marth talking to Nyna at the end of chapter 13

Even with being called out by a villager Marth had a very human reaction to the matter, and still couldn't find it in his heart to forgive them fully at the time, something he couldn't find himself to do until after the war, or arguably when he faced down Camus and the Sable order as well as recruiting Lorenz.

As for Marth's arrogant side I never thought of it that way, but thinking back I can see it. I always thought it was nothing but confidence and determination but he really had no qualms with taking lives at the beginning of the game and has quotes that show that throughout most of the game and even in the first chapter.

Marth:
“Steady, Shiida. You did well to come find us. Altea’s bravest knights aren’t about to hand Talys to that flock of seafowl. Come, we’ll make for the castle now!” -Chapter 1

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Looking back at Warriors I think you are right, a lot of what I liked there was me reading it with the context of FE12 Marth in mind. I get the feeling the Omega Force people may have either been given restrictive instructions with regard to returning FE character's portrayal or were too afraid of the backlash they might receive if they didn't play it as safe as possible with them. With regard to FEH they really do not have much time with any of the characters, although this quote might interest you:

Spoiler

Ever since people began referring to me as Hero-King, I've been pondering the true meaning of justice. Victory births the defeated, and the defeated vow vengeance through clenched teeth. This means history is forever doomed to repeat itself. My father struck down, my country seized... I, too, have seen losses, so I can empathize. After fleeing to safety, I swore to restore my homeland with the help of my comrades. It was Nyna who entrusted me with the Fire Emblem...and it strengthened my resolve to fight on. I no longer fought for vengeance... I fought for the people. I found victory only because I had first found so many allies who shared my new sense of justice. They lent me their strength, and we fought as one. And now, I have come to believe that you share that same sense of justice. Let us continue to fight as one, [Summoner] 

- FEH Marth: Hero-King 5 star level 40 conversation

 

On 1/16/2019 at 12:39 PM, JimmyBeans said:

Maybe it's just because he is shown to not have flaws, which fe12 actually does, and his character feels like it's grown to point where he is just perfect and always right (maybe it's just the voice). There is a huge crowd of people in the FE community that say Marth is a boring character, and I feel that this is part to do with it. Thoughts?

I think every portrayal of his has some serious issues that makes him feel bland. FE1 was made on the adorable potato know as the Famicom and like a lot of RPGs of the era it barely has room for the plot on those cartridges, let alone character development (plus a lot of people have played the remakes without the originals for FE1-3). FE3 has an issue similar to FE1 due to them shoving two games into one, although it is no where near as pronounced (plus the remake point still stands). I think I covered the way FE11's presentation made him seem bland in a previous post. In FE12 the perfect, bland, can do no wrong player avatar, and lightning rod for IS's browner and drippier writing (Kris) can overshadow Marth with his/her intrusive presence. I think your point covers the reason Warrior's portrayal feels so bland perfectly. Meanwhile FEH requires both luck and the player to already be invested in Marth enough to even find his portrayal, and thus anyone who didn't already find him interesting won't find anything to change their opinion.

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On 1/17/2019 at 3:18 PM, Eltosian Kadath said:

Looking back at Warriors I think you are right, a lot of what I liked there was me reading it with the context of FE12 Marth in mind. I get the feeling the Omega Force people may have either been given restrictive instructions with regard to returning FE character's portrayal or were too afraid of the backlash they might receive if they didn't play it as safe as possible with them. With regard to FEH they really do not have much time with any of the characters, although this quote might interest you:

...

 

I think every portrayal of his has some serious issues that makes him feel bland. FE1 was made on the adorable potato know as the Famicom and like a lot of RPGs of the era it barely has room for the plot on those cartridges, let alone character development (plus a lot of people have played the remakes without the originals for FE1-3). FE3 has an issue similar to FE1 due to them shoving two games into one, although it is no where near as pronounced (plus the remake point still stands). I think I covered the way FE11's presentation made him seem bland in a previous post. In FE12 the perfect, bland, can do no wrong player avatar, and lightning rod for IS's browner and drippier writing (Kris) can overshadow Marth with his/her intrusive presence. I think your point covers the reason Warrior's portrayal feels so bland perfectly. Meanwhile FEH requires both luck and the player to already be invested in Marth enough to even find his portrayal, and thus anyone who didn't already find him interesting won't find anything to change their opinion.

Wow I do like that quote a lot I can't believe I never saw that (probably because I forgot Legendary Marth exists). I have to say I agree that Marth just hasn't hit that sweet spot yet in terms of Character, Presentation, and relevancy (looking at Kris) that we all want, and at times modern Marth feels like a step back but at least I have some renewed hope with LMarth.

As for the warriors thing yeah I can see that, it makes sense that they were playing it safe especially when you see how many repeat scenes were in that game like the Lucina vs. Chrom deal and a lot more, they definitely stuck with ideas that everyone recognized.

And as for heroes I'm just happy it's there even if it was under my nose the whole time.

Now that you mention it I feel it is appropriate to say that after I read the fe3 script it was surprising to see how much Kris took away from the cast in the remake, I love fe12 and I think it does some good things but that's pretty tragic...

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