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Gen1 units in the 5* pool


Garlyle
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I just went through the list of units from the units that came out before the first round of Brave Heroes - a lot of units who are a rare sight, and due to their lower stats they don't see much play, unless you are a hardcore fan of that unit. I am looking only at the 5* pool, which has one of the dreaded pitybreakers, and since Gen1 stats didn't get any support, I'm starting to question why are they still in the pool. Separating them in categories.

4* units have all what we have

  • Azura
  • Elise
  • Lucina
  • Olwen
  • Karel
  • Mist

Out of these I only have Karel, and I rarely use him. I know Elise was popular, but with the new cavalry healers that came out, her fame is coming to an end. Lucina, Olwen and Karel have perfect weapons, but they are not the only ones wielding them. That raises the question: what keeps them in the 5* pool?

At least our weapons are unique

  • Linde
  • Lyn
  • Minerva
  • Ryoma
  • Tiki
  • Ephraim
  • Julia
  • Eldigan
  • Sanaki
  • Jaffar

Besides their weapon, all their skills can be inherited from 3-4* units. But honestly most of their weapon are not that exciting - I'd like to try out Sanaki, but the rest of them is just in the meh category. Same question as the previous group: why are they still here?

The one skill you might inherit

  • Alm - Windsweep
  • Hinoka - Hone Fliers
  • Leo - Blazing Light
  • Takumi - Close Counter
  • Ninian - Fortify Dragons
  • Faye - Bow Exp
  • Ike - Heavy Blade
  • Genny - Wrathful Staff
  • Delthea - Drive Atk
  • Amelia - Armor March
  • Innes - Fortress Res

They each have 1 inheritable skill that is locked in 5* pool or in limited amount. Honestly the ones that might have impact are Close Counter, Wrathful Staff, Armor March, and slightly Drive Atk. Also keep in mind that Faye has Firesweep Bow, another stuff that could stir up the game. Drive Atk is a good skill, but because it exist in seal form, it's not a big deal to inherit. Close Counter might look intimidating, but only a few scenarios come to my mind when that'd be the best A skill. I am surprised to see that Blazing Light, Heavy Blade, Windsweep and Fortress Res is so limited.

Ok, we've got more

  • Hector - Distant Counter, Goad Armor
  • Celica - Blazing Light, Distant Def
  • Katarina - Raudrowl, Swift Sparrow, Atk Ploy
  • Luke - Fire Boost, Panic Ploy
  • Gray - Zanbato, Wind Boost, Sword Valor
  • Saber - Hp/Spd, Shield Pulse
  • Sonya - Mirror Strike, Res Ploy
  • Tana - Spd/Def, Guidance

Out of these, Luke, Gray and Sonya carry probably the least impact if they drop. Distant Counter is still good, and Distant Def is another nice skill to have. Katarina honestly only have Swift Sparrow as the main reason to be locked, Saber has Shield Pulse and Tana got Guidance. I did want to have Tana at one point, but now I have L!Ryoma and the Guidance seal as well, which is enough to keep me comfortable with this. Honestly the ones I don't see dropping from this group is Hector, Katarina and Saber, but maybe Celica would also stay, because of Distant Def. I find myself using Distant Def seal the most.

EDIT: having second thoughts already, Sonya doesn't have that bad of a skillset.

Edited by Garlyle
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1 hour ago, Garlyle said:

Azura

She is a Dancer/Singer. Silvia is the only one Intelligent Systems dropped to 4* so far, and I am not sure if they would be that generous to drop another.

1 hour ago, Garlyle said:

Elise

She got 32/32 offensive stats and is the third best cavalry healer in the game, and definitely in the top 10 healers overall.

1 hour ago, Garlyle said:

Olwen

She is basically Setsuna/Rebecca, a magical blue version of quad attacking Brave Bow archers. She is not as good as she used to be, but she is still decent on a cavalry team.

1 hour ago, Garlyle said:

Tiki

Dragons are premium units. They have not dropped one into the lower pools yet. It took them over a year to add another Dancer/Singer into the lower pool, so I imagine dropping a dragon would similarly be a rare treat.

1 hour ago, Garlyle said:

Ninian - Fortify Dragons

Ward Dragons is better, and Ninian is a Dancer.

1 hour ago, Garlyle said:

Faye - Bow Exp

2 hours ago, Garlyle said:

Faye has Firesweep Bow, another stuff that could stir up the game.

Bow Exp is generally detrimental; any kind of Exp skill makes SP grinding less efficient. Firesweep Bow would be the only reason to keep her up in the 5* pool in my opinion.

1 hour ago, Garlyle said:

Takumi - Close Counter

1 hour ago, Garlyle said:

but only a few scenarios come to my mind when that'd be the best A skill

Close Counter is a Pain staff unit's wet dream.

1 hour ago, Garlyle said:

Celica - Blazing Light, Distant Def

She is the most powerful red mage nuke that does not use Rauðrblade. The last time they dropped a range nuke with decent stats was M!Morgan.

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2 hours ago, Garlyle said:

I'm starting to question why are they still in the pool.

Because they simply have never dropped a 5-star-exclusive character from the 5-star pool if it didn't drop at the end of its release banner.

 

32 minutes ago, XRay said:

Bow Exp is generally detrimental; any kind of Exp skill makes SP grinding less efficient.

If you use the Special Training maps for leveling, you're losing out on a total of maybe 2 kills' worth of SP total when running an Experience skill since the only map you hit the experience cap for is the level 5 map.

That's a very small price to pay for having a few more levels' worth of stats at the start of each subsequent map and having to only run the level 34 map once to hit level 40 instead of two or three times (depending on the cooldown of your Special skill).

Edited by Ice Dragon
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GHB/TT units are worth considering as more available than 5* exclusives, especially with Heroic Grails being a thing. This puts less emphasis on skills like Panic Ploy, Fire Boost, and Goad Armor. Panic Ploy and Guidance are also noteworthy for being skills available as Sacred Seals, while being skills that don't stack in multiples like Distant Def.

Bringing GHB/TT units into the picture also adds more dragons and another dancer. No blue dancers, though, which is a noteworthy distinction Azura and Ninian still hold. Skills aren't the only factor.

Edited by Othin
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2 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

If you use the Special Training maps for leveling, you're losing out on a total of maybe 2 kills' worth of SP total when running an Experience skill since the only map you hit the experience cap for is the level 5 map.

That's a very small price to pay for having a few more levels' worth of stats at the start of each subsequent map and having to only run the level 34 map once to hit level 40 instead of two or three times (depending on the cooldown of your Special skill).

But you gain about half as much SP in the higher level maps since you progress twice as quickly. Being able to grind on the Hard maps longer means that you are more efficient with Stamina and your unit is less likely to die if you use auto battle.

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1 hour ago, XRay said:

Bow Exp is generally detrimental; any kind of Exp skill makes SP grinding less efficient. Firesweep Bow would be the only reason to keep her up in the 5* pool in my opinion.

3 hours ago, Garlyle said:

why?
Firesweep sword and lance 4*/5* and 3/4*
whatever issues FSBow has- you could make it 4*
 

24 minutes ago, Landmaster said:

#DropEliseto3*4*Pool2K19

#hinokatoo

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43 minutes ago, XRay said:

But you gain about half as much SP in the higher level maps since you progress twice as quickly. Being able to grind on the Hard maps longer means that you are more efficient with Stamina and your unit is less likely to die if you use auto battle.

I run every map exactly once except for the level 34 map, so I'm progressing no faster than before with or without an Experience skill.

Running a Hard-level map instead of the Lunatic-level map only saves 5 Stamina per run, which isn't a significant gain considering how cheap Stamina is and the number of extra maps you'd get to run.

 

Also, I cringe at the thought of using auto battle on the Special Training maps. Many of them carry too much risk of your unit accidentally wiping the map too early (the Ranged map in particular allows you to easily wipe the map by simply having the unit move to the right of the bridge and having all of the enemies suicide immediately after spawn).

 

1 minute ago, daisy jane said:

why?
Firesweep sword and lance 4*/5* and 3/4*
whatever issues FSBow has- you could make it 4*

Because Firesweep Bow, being a ranged weapon, is far more effective than the melee Firesweep weapons, similar to how ranged Brave weapons are more effective than their melee counterparts.

Edited by Ice Dragon
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2 minutes ago, daisy jane said:

why?
Firesweep sword and lance 4*/5* and 3/4*
whatever issues FSBow has- you could make it 4*

It's a fair point, but the problem is that Brave Lyn exist. People agree that Lyn with FS Bow would be instant kill.

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3 minutes ago, Garlyle said:

It's a fair point, but the problem is that Brave Lyn exist. People agree that Lyn with FS Bow would be instant kill.

Brave Lyn (33/35 offenses), Kinshi Hinoka (32/35), Summer Takumi (35/35), and New Year Fjorm (35/35) now, actually. Especially with Gray Waves being a thing.

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17 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

I run every map exactly once except for the level 34 map, so I'm progressing no faster than before with or without an Experience skill.

Running a Hard-level map instead of the Lunatic-level map only saves 5 Stamina per run, which isn't a significant gain considering how cheap Stamina is and the number of extra maps you'd get to run.

 

Also, I cringe at the thought of using auto battle on the Special Training maps. Many of them carry too much risk of your unit accidentally wiping the map too early (the Ranged map in particular allows you to easily wipe the map by simply having the unit move to the right of the bridge and having all of the enemies suicide immediately after spawn).

 

Because Firesweep Bow, being a ranged weapon, is far more effective than the melee Firesweep weapons, similar to how ranged Brave weapons are more effective than their melee counterparts.

 

14 minutes ago, Garlyle said:

It's a fair point, but the problem is that Brave Lyn exist. People agree that Lyn with FS Bow would be instant kill.

I guess. 
I mean i figure you could have it locked to 5. (so it's just feathers)

I mean it's not a big (I hope to get a few Fayes one day). i just figure even being ranged - Firesweep is in the main pool (the best version available via feather), so i would just have FSBow (1) locked at 5 as well as +. then Faye only has Silver Bow until you promote her. 

but i can see why

It would just be nice to have more of their banners (Faye, Hinoka etc). 

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2 minutes ago, daisy jane said:

I mean it's not a big (I hope to get a few Fayes one day). i just figure even being ranged - Firesweep is in the main pool (the best version available via feather), so i would just have FSBow (1) locked at 5 as well as +. then Faye only has Silver Bow until you promote her. 

The difference is that "premium" skills (which Firesweep Bow definitely is and the other Firesweep weapons definitely aren't) simply aren't available from 4-star pulls (though some are available from limited reward characters).

Swift Sparrow, for example is currently available on a massive thirteen different characters, and still none of them are in the 4-star pool.

 

I can provide an in-depth argument as to why Firesweep Bow should be considered a premium skill while the others shouldn't if you wish.

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4 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Swift Sparrow, for example is currently available on a massive thirteen different characters, and still none of them are in the 4-star pool.
I can provide an in-depth argument as to why Firesweep Bow should be considered a premium skill while the others shouldn't if you wish.


I was gonna say not anymore... (Eir has swift sparrow) - but it's just one unit (and notin the pool, so yah). 

i wouldn't mind :) i like analysis stuff like this!
(I mean again. ultimately i'm fine with it being 5* locked exclusive - just have more banners for it) 

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42 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

I run every map exactly once except for the level 34 map, so I'm progressing no faster than before with or without an Experience skill.

Running a Hard-level map instead of the Lunatic-level map only saves 5 Stamina per run, which isn't a significant gain considering how cheap Stamina is and the number of extra maps you'd get to run.

 

Also, I cringe at the thought of using auto battle on the Special Training maps. Many of them carry too much risk of your unit accidentally wiping the map too early (the Ranged map in particular allows you to easily wipe the map by simply having the unit move to the right of the bridge and having all of the enemies suicide immediately after spawn).

I run them multiple times. While Stamina is cheap, I rather not waste Stamina if I can help it.

While you cannot auto battle efficiently on all maps for all units, you can auto battle on all of them towards the end of the map to take a short break, generally at around the eighth or ninth turn when the final wave spawns.

It is also easier to spam End Turn in the non Lunatic maps since the enemies are much weaker and are much less likely to kill your trainee on Enemy Phase, so you can do some other stuff while your finger is tapping away.

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8 minutes ago, daisy jane said:

i wouldn't mind :) i like analysis stuff like this!
(I mean again. ultimately i'm fine with it being 5* locked exclusive - just have more banners for it) 

The greatest advantage of ranged units is their increased reach. Compared to melee units, ranged units have an easier time reaching enemy units on player phase (and can also attack over walls) and an easier time getting out with Assist skills (because they don't have to go as far into enemy lines). Additionally, given the same offensive stats, ranged units have lower defensive stats than melee units due to having lower stat totals and the existence of breath weapons, which increases the value of negating the opponent's counterattack.

Similarly, because of their lower defensive stats, ranged units are generally unsuited to enemy-phase combat unless they are specifically running skills that significantly boost their stats to compensate (most notably Litrowl, which bow users not named Innes do not have access to). This means that the drawback of being unable to counterattack on enemy phase is largely irrelevant.

Conversely, melee units have issues with both their reach and the drawback of Firesweep weapons. Their reduced reach makes them less effective on player phase, and the drawback be being unable to counterattack on enemy phase completely shuts down their ability to kill on baiting. Furthermore, because Firesweep weapons cannot be refined, melee units lose out on a significant amount of additional stats that could have been gained with a different weapon compared to the smaller amount of stats that ranged refines give, often making the Slaying weapon or Wo Dao weapon a better choice.

 

Also note that the existence of Firesweep Bow and Brave Bow is exactly the reason why daggers are considered the weakest weapon type in the game since daggers (well, non-armor daggers not named Flora) have the same drawbacks of other ranged units (namely, weak defensive stats) without any of the options to mitigate those weaknesses (tomes have access to Litrblade to kill the opponent outright and Litrowl to effectively tank). Cloud Maiougi (and Sky Maiougi to a lesser extent) is pretty much the only thing keeping daggers afloat due to the prevalence of dragons (and armors) in the current meta.

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At this point, all of the launch day 5-star units (with the possible exception of Hector) just need to be dropped out of the 5-star pool. The ones that are close to launch-day, or were never good to begin with, should also probably be dropped. Most of them just aren't that good anymore, and almost all of them have shitty inheritance options.

When I got a spare normal Azura on that one legendary banner (instead of Ishtar or L!Lucina, both of whom I still lack!) I just gave her sapphire lance+ to my 4-star Sully because why would I use a 5-star to pass on speed+3 or fortify res? Ephraim has pity broken me twice after the very first one (although to be fair, each new Ephraim was better than the last), but his skill inheritance options are so bad. Seal defense and threaten defense, right? It's also redundant. Julia's skill options are a "lovely" res+3 and breath of life, both of which I can get from 4-star units. Olwen is literally her brother with less attack and higher speed, and he's been demoted to 3-4 stars. He uses their default weapon better than she does, too. What's her excuse for being 5-stars? At least she has reposition.

Characters like Lyn, Ike, and Lucina are insanely popular, yes, but at this point that doesn't justify keeping them in the 5-star pool when other popular characters like Marth, Roy, and Camilla have been dropped to 3-4 star long ago, and other popular characters like f!Corrin and m!Robin had never been locked to 5-star to begin with. Lyn's not even all that good even with her weapon refine, especially if you have one with a shitty asset/flaw combination, and none of the DC weapon users have received a refine at all yet.

Basically, they need to either demote these fuckers out of the 5-star pool, or at least give them better skill inheritance options to justify keeping them there. Or better stats, which I very much highly doubt they'll do.

Edited by Sunwoo
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Ephraim with his refine is a player-phase monster tbh. Keeping his health at a decent level while giving him Death Blow creates a pretty deadly unit in a hit-and-run style or gravity-dancing team.

Other than that, yeah. Many of your suggestions could really use demotes

Edited by Arcphoenix
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Just now, Arcphoenix said:

Ephraim with his refine is a player-phase monster tbh. Keeping his health at a decent level while giving him Death Blow creates a pretty deadly unit in a hit-and-run style or gravity-dancing team

"Decent health" is what I'd call ≥75%. Ephraim's refine requires him to be at 90% or above. Even if one had +HP Ephraim with his personal refine, one splash of savage blow 3 will knock him right out of that range. So one would basically have to dedicate a healer just to keeping Ephraim at above 90% health. Which is a valid strategy, yes, but I don't think it justifies keeping him 5-star locked.

In contrast, Roy's a 3-4 star unit now and he has a personal QR that works at 50% or above. Which is better than a normal QR.

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1 minute ago, Sunwoo said:

In contrast, Roy's a 3-4 star unit now and he has a personal QR that works at 50% or above. Which is better than a normal QR.

To be fair, QR is a lot less potent than guaranteed PP doubles. With QR, more often than not, you need to either have enough speed to avoid doubles (meaning you can't invest all those points in other stats) or need to tank two hits which with how easy buffs are isn't a complete walk in the park. On PP, you get both hits in the time they get one, so it's a hell of a lot easier to survive and still be able to dump speed.

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8 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

The greatest advantage of ranged units is their increased reach. Compared to melee units, ranged units have an easier time reaching enemy units on player phase (and can also attack over walls) and an easier time getting out with Assist skills (because they don't have to go as far into enemy lines). Additionally, given the same offensive stats, ranged units have lower defensive stats than melee units due to having lower stat totals and the existence of breath weapons, which increases the value of negating the opponent's counterattack.

Similarly, because of their lower defensive stats, ranged units are generally unsuited to enemy-phase combat unless they are specifically running skills that significantly boost their stats to compensate (most notably Litrowl, which bow users not named Innes do not have access to). This means that the drawback of being unable to counterattack on enemy phase is largely irrelevant.

Conversely, melee units have issues with both their reach and the drawback of Firesweep weapons. Their reduced reach makes them less effective on player phase, and the drawback be being unable to counterattack on enemy phase completely shuts down their ability to kill on baiting. Furthermore, because Firesweep weapons cannot be refined, melee units lose out on a significant amount of additional stats that could have been gained with a different weapon compared to the smaller amount of stats that ranged refines give, often making the Slaying weapon or Wo Dao weapon a better choice.

 

Also note that the existence of Firesweep Bow and Brave Bow is exactly the reason why daggers are considered the weakest weapon type in the game since daggers (well, non-armor daggers not named Flora) have the same drawbacks of other ranged units (namely, weak defensive stats) without any of the options to mitigate those weaknesses (tomes have access to Litrblade to kill the opponent outright and Litrowl to effectively tank). Cloud Maiougi (and Sky Maiougi to a lesser extent) is pretty much the only thing keeping daggers afloat due to the prevalence of dragons (and armors) in the current meta.

thanks. that all makes a lot of sense. 

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7 hours ago, bottlegnomes said:

To be fair, QR is a lot less potent than guaranteed PP doubles. With QR, more often than not, you need to either have enough speed to avoid doubles (meaning you can't invest all those points in other stats) or need to tank two hits which with how easy buffs are isn't a complete walk in the park. On PP, you get both hits in the time they get one, so it's a hell of a lot easier to survive and still be able to dump speed.

Then why does bold fighter have a more liberal HP threshold?

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4 hours ago, Icelerate said:

Then why does bold fighter have a more liberal HP threshold?

Because trying to initiate combat with 1 movement range is harder than standing inside an enemy's attack range. Granted, this reasoning is sorely outdated at this point.

Edited by Ice Dragon
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14 hours ago, Sunwoo said:

At this point, all of the launch day 5-star units (with the possible exception of Hector) just need to be dropped out of the 5-star pool. The ones that are close to launch-day, or were never good to begin with, should also probably be dropped. Most of them just aren't that good anymore, and almost all of them have shitty inheritance options.

I would keep Ryoma and Linde as 5 star exclusives. They alongside Hector, Effie and Cordelia are the only lauch day units that still have a presence.

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