What spirits do you think were misranked?

[Jotari]

9 minutes ago, Etheus said:

I at least understand the reasoning here.

 

Elincia's ratings are a beautiful reflection of her transformation from a helpless damsel to a powerful, driven ruler in one of FE's best character arcs. It's also a great reflection of her viability as a unit in PoR - initially weak but brimming with incredible potential.

Ashnard is certainly more objectively powerful than Elincia, but his role in the grand scheme of Tellius isn't actually as great as say... The Black Knight or the other spoiler villain. He's a mad, destructive bull who thinks himself a master while really being a pawn.

Four Star still seems too high for Elincia when taking the grand number of Nintendo characters and then some into account. Like her influence on Tellius is certainly less than Medeus's influence on Archanea and he's only a lowly two star. Of course Medeus has never not got shafted when it comes to basically anything (aside from TMS, the least Fire Emblem of all Emblem series), despite virtually every other series out there honoring their original villain beyond reason. There's countless exmples of characters more relevant both in and out of universe than Elincia who are three stars. Tiki's another example, who also evolves from a two star, but unlike Elincia she doesn't just jump up to four, despite being more popular, more powerful and more influential. Of course part of that might be because she was a good unit to give the Grands an additional mid air jump skill too (still, even then I probably would have given it to the White Wings for their cross game appeal).

Edited February 6, 2019 by Jotari

[Interdimensional Observer]

8 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Of course Medeus has never not got shafted when it comes to basically anything (aside from TMS, the least Fire Emblem of all Emblem series)

Medeus was shafted in TMS if you ask me. Sure he showed up, but it was only at the very end after doing a whole lot of nothing for the entire game. Of course, that is exactly how Medeus is in Marth's games, so it the norm for Medeus just showing up for a final clobbering.

[Jotari]

2 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Medeus was shafted in TMS if you ask me. Sure he showed up, but it was only at the very end after doing a whole lot of nothing for the entire game. Of course, that is exactly how Medeus is in Marth's games, so it the norm for Medeus just showing up for a final clobbering.

Not showing up at all is the norm for Medeus, his name even being mentioned deserves a standing ovation.

[Fabulously Olivier]

Let's be honest here. Medeus isn't a great villain and doesn't deserve much better than he gets.

 

Even in his own games, he is overshadowed by Gharnef, the real villain of Shadow Dragon in essence, even if he isn't the final boss. It's kind of like how Nergal is the real villain of Blazing Sword despite the nameless fire dragon being the final boss, or Lyon being the real villain of Sacred Stones.

Edited February 6, 2019 by Etheus

[Jotari]

6 minutes ago, Etheus said:

Let's be honest here. Medeus isn't a great villain and doesn't deserve much better than he gets.

 

Even in his own games, he is overshadowed by Gharnef, the real villain of Shadow Dragon in essence, even if he isn't the final boss. It's kind of like how Nergal is the real villain of Blazing Sword despite the nameless fire dragon being the final boss, or Lyon being the real villain of Sacred Stones.

Sure when you compare him to Lyon or Nergal he comes short. But he was the final boss of a 1990 game. He's better compared to the likes of Bowser, Ridley and Ganon who had like no dialogue in their debuts. Medeus isn't a great villain, but not through any fault of his own, there's a great idea behind him, it just has never been even partially executed because the ambition for story at that time was "rar drgaons!" and in the followup game he was too busy being dead.

[Fabulously Olivier]

4 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Sure when you compare him to Lyon or Nergal he comes short. But he was the final boss of a 1990 game. He's better compared to the likes of Bowser, Ridley and Ganon who had like no dialogue in their debuts. Medeus isn't a great villain, but not through any fault of his own, there's a great idea behind him, it just has never been even partially executed because the ambition for story at that time was "rar drgaons!" and in the followup game he was too busy being dead.

Well, yes, but how much weight can we give the "for its time" excuse? It contextualizes bad/mediocre writing, but it doesn't elevate it to being good.

 

IMO, Shadow Dragon and New Mystery deserve another remake. Not before FE4-FE8, mind you, but they do deserve an eventual Echoes style remake that fleshes out their story, characters, and supports. They are mechanically solid games with good maps (unlike Gaiden/Echoes), but they essentially don't have writing. It makes them an excellent blank slate from which to make a quality game.

[Jotari]

10 minutes ago, Etheus said:

Well, yes, but how much weight can we give the "for its time" excuse? It contextualizes bad/mediocre writing, but it doesn't elevate it to being good.

 

IMO, Shadow Dragon and New Mystery deserve another remake. Not before FE4-FE8, mind you, but they do deserve an eventual Echoes style remake that fleshes out their story, characters, and supports. They are mechanically solid games with good maps (unlike Gaiden/Echoes), but they essentially don't have writing. It makes them an excellent blank slate from which to make a quality game.

Oh I'm not arguing Medeus is actually a good villain (by better compared I meant it was a better comparison, not that he's better than those characters, in case that was ambiguous). What I'm saying is that the way he was implemented was very much of it's time and many other characters were in the exact same situation. But in the cases of the other characters, they were kept around in some form and we able to exist with better presence in later games. Now this wouldn't necessarily work as well for Fire Emblem given it's change in setting with every few installments, but even series like Final Fantasy put focus on Chaos as the original villain when ensemble games came along. Medeus will probably never be the best Fire Emblem villain ever, but he will always be the first one. That's a title unique to him and I think it deserves some sort of acknowledgement. Seniority isn't an excuse for aggrandization, but I do think it counts for something. Shouldn't have to wait over two years to get into Heroes at any rate. And could be better than a paltry two stars in Ultimate (to bring the convo back on topic).

Edited February 6, 2019 by Jotari

[Fabulously Olivier]

2 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Oh I'm not arguing Medeus is actually a good villain (by better compared I meant it was a better comparison, not that he's better than those characters, in case that was ambiguous). What I'm saying is that the way he was implemented was very much of it's time and many other characters were in the exact same situation. But in the cases of the other characters, they were kept around in some form and we able to exist with better presence in later games. Now this wouldn't necessarily work as well for Fire Emblem given it's change in setting with every few installments, but even series like Final Fantasy put focus on Chaos as the original villain when ensemble games came along. Medeus will probably never be the best Fire Emblem villain ever, but he will always be the first one. That's a title unique to him and I think it deserves some sort of acknowledgement. Seniority isn't an excuse for aggrandization, but I do think it counts for something. Shouldn't have to wait over two years to get into Heroes at any rate. And could be better than a paltry two stars in Ultimate (to bring the convo back on topic).

That's also fair. By no means am I arguing for not improving upon something. 

 

A prequel to Shadow Dragon would be ideal, rather than grandfathering him in to previous games. Seeing the mythical lore that founded the conflict between the divine dragons and the earth dragons would be a tantalizing prospect for a new game, and a perfect chance to give Medeus and Loptyr some depth.

 

And yes, Medeus should be a GHB in Heroes and probably does deserve a 3 star rating in Smash.

[Jotari]

8 minutes ago, Etheus said:

That's also fair. By no means am I arguing for not improving upon something. 

 

A prequel to Shadow Dragon would be ideal, rather than grandfathering him in to previous games. Seeing the mythical lore that founded the conflict between the divine dragons and the earth dragons would be a tantalizing prospect for a new game, and a perfect chance to give Medeus and Loptyr some depth.

 

And yes, Medeus should be a GHB in Heroes and probably does deserve a 3 star rating in Smash.

*Tinfoil hat on*. Medeus was the only Earth Dragon that agreed to become a Manakete while the rest fought the Divine Dragons. He's only ever referred to as the Earth Dragon prince, not the Earth Dragon king. Presumably there was an Earth Dragon king leading the war against the Divine Dragons. The only other Earth Dragon we know of is Loptyr, who is depicted as a rival to Naga and powerful enough to become a Dark Dragon (probably). So it isn't too farfetched to hypothesize that Loptyr is the unknown Earth Dragon King. Which if true, would make him Medeus's father (or possibly mother even, as I don't think Loptyr's gender is even confirmed with certainty, at least it's probably a ambiguous as Naga's was).

Edited February 6, 2019 by Jotari

[Fabulously Olivier]

2 minutes ago, Jotari said:

*Tinfoil hat on*. Medeus was the only Earth Dragon that agreed to become a Manakete while the rest fought the Divine Dragons. He's only ever referred to as the Earth Dragon prince, not the Earth Dragon king. Presumably there was an Earth Dragon king leading the war against the Divine Dragons. The only other Earth Dragon we know of is Loptyr, who is depicted as a rival to Naga and powerful enough to become a Dark Dragon (probably). So it isn't too farfetched to hypothesize that Loptyr is the unknown Earth Dragon King. Which if true, would make him Medeus's father (or possibly mother even, as I don't think Loptyr's gender is even confirmed with certainty, at least it's probably a ambiguous as Naga's was).

Now that is some fascinating tinfoil hattery.

[Shadow Mir]

On 1/25/2019 at 4:41 PM, Truebladee said:

I think that the ranking system of Spirits is not about power but about popularity

I doubt it - otherwise Camilla would most likely have been 4 star, among other oddities.

3 hours ago, Etheus said:

I at least understand the reasoning here.

 

Elincia's ratings are a beautiful reflection of her transformation from a helpless damsel to a powerful, driven ruler in one of FE's best character arcs. It's also a great reflection of her viability as a unit in PoR - initially weak but brimming with incredible potential.

Ashnard is certainly more objectively powerful than Elincia, but his role in the grand scheme of Tellius isn't actually as great as say... The Black Knight or the other spoiler villain. He's a mad, destructive bull who thinks himself a master while really being a pawn.

That certainly makes sense, I must say.

[Interdimensional Observer]

3 hours ago, Jotari said:

Not showing up at all is the norm for Medeus, his name even being mentioned deserves a standing ovation.

Have to agree with this of course. TMS using a recolored Medeus as the superboss M-DEUS was extraordinarily generous (although the color scheme of Divine-ish yellow with green accents is weird).

 

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

*Tinfoil hat on*. Medeus was the only Earth Dragon that agreed to become a Manakete while the rest fought the Divine Dragons. He's only ever referred to as the Earth Dragon prince, not the Earth Dragon king. Presumably there was an Earth Dragon king leading the war against the Divine Dragons. The only other Earth Dragon we know of is Loptyr, who is depicted as a rival to Naga and powerful enough to become a Dark Dragon (probably). So it isn't too farfetched to hypothesize that Loptyr is the unknown Earth Dragon King. Which if true, would make him Medeus's father (or possibly mother even, as I don't think Loptyr's gender is even confirmed with certainty, at least it's probably a ambiguous as Naga's was).

I'd doubt Loptyr to be the King, although I don't think we need a king. Prince, as in ruler of a Principality, can refer to a full-fledged sovereign (hence Machiavelli's The Prince).

If Loptyr was the King of the Earth Dragons, then why did he seemingly abandon the glorious cause against Naga in Archanea? That isn't leadership to me. The actual leader of the Earth Dragons was probably someone who through her absolute power Naga destroyed beyond any form of enduring existence. Tired after this, she probably then chose to create the Binding Shield to deal with the feral and brainless peons. Since the Falchion is only a single fang of her power, it wouldn't be so permanently annihilating.

[Jotari]

7 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Have to agree with this of course. TMS using a recolored Medeus as the superboss M-DEUS was extraordinarily generous (although the color scheme of Divine-ish yellow with green accents is weird).

 

I'd doubt Loptyr to be the King, although I don't think we need a king. Prince, as in ruler of a Principality, can refer to a full-fledged sovereign (hence Machiavelli's The Prince).

If Loptyr was the King of the Earth Dragons, then why did he seemingly abandon the glorious cause against Naga in Archanea? That isn't leadership to me. The actual leader of the Earth Dragons was probably someone who through her absolute power Naga destroyed beyond any form of enduring existence. Tired after this, she probably then chose to create the Binding Shield to deal with the feral and brainless peons. Since the Falchion is only a single fang of her power, it wouldn't be so permanently annihilating.

I doubt Medeus was a ruling prince, otherwise he would have had Earth Dragons under his command that would have become Manaketes with him. If he was a prince of a princibality he was a pretty shitty one as every single one of his subjects refused to follow his lead. And we actually don't know if Loptyr abandoned his fight against Naga. We know literally nothing about what happened to Loptyr's true body after he blood bonded with Galle. The only thing we have to go off of is the fact that Naga did the same thing and lived for another seventy years.

[Emeraldfox]

1: Mr. Sandman and Super Macho Man's ranks should switch

2. Severa shouldn't be weaker than a generic Eevee

3. Draug should have the Armor Knight skill too

4. Tethu should have had two slots, Esna requires two slots. In Ever Oasis she supports the player(Tethu) throughout the game.

5. Sukapon should be deleted