How would you feel if all the DLC was 3rd Party?

[Gregster101]

2 hours ago, Etheus said:

I just don't see the need for more first party characters. What could even be contributed that would be better than a strong 3rd party pick?

 

Bandana Dee is just a 3rd player character, and one based off a generic enemy design no less. I certainly think that he should have been the preorder bonus above Pirahna Plant, but he's only a half step better.

Dixie Kong is just another Kong. We don't need just another Kong. They aren't interesting, and if the series were to even get another rep, it would be better served with another villain addition who could potentially bring more to the table.

Tingle is an abortion in human form. Impa would be an unnecessary Sheik variant. Almost everyone else in the Zelda series is a one off character that will never be seen again and does not represent anything more than a brief footnote of gaming history.

Walluigi is such a self-loathing joke character that losing his spot to Pirahna Plant is unironically the most Walluigi thing to have ever happened.

Earthbound is ancient history.

F-Zero is dead.

Star Fox is almost dead.

Pokemon and Mario don't need more reps.

Metroid has everyone it needs, and some.

 

Fire Emblem squandered its potential on sword-lords that caused the community to react with blind revulsion to new characters from a franchise that could offer so much variety.

 

I don't see what they could possibly even add beyond another Xenoblade rep (which would be great, but not necessary) and an Arms rep (and who would even care if they did?). 

 

The best thing they could have done outside of third parties was add honorary Nintendo exclusive characters from third party developers like Travis Touchdown and Phoenix Wright/Miles Edgeworth.

You do realize people want Bandana Dee and Dixie Kong mainly to round out their respective series' representation right? Like, I'm an avid supporter for both of them, and not to mention Zelda is long overdue for a new character that isn't part of the Triforce trio, even if it has to be the abomination that is Tingle.

[Fabulously Olivier]

16 minutes ago, Gregster101 said:

You do realize people want Bandana Dee and Dixie Kong mainly to round out their respective series' representation right? Like, I'm an avid supporter for both of them, and not to mention Zelda is long overdue for a new character that isn't part of the Triforce trio, even if it has to be the abomination that is Tingle.

And the entire idea of "rounding out a series' representation" is ridiculous to begin with. At what point is it good enough? As far as I can tell, it's just repeatedly moving the goal post. 

 

Kirby with Kirby, Metaknight, and Dedede is rounded representation. It is the 3 most important characters, without whom the games are incomplete but with whom complete games can be made. You have the hero, the villain, and the rival/anti-hero.

 

Donkey Kong with Donkey Kong, Diddy Kong, and K. Rool is rounded representation. You have the hero, the sidekick, and the villain. That's all you need to have rounded representation. (In fact, you don't even actually need Diddy to have rounded representation.) Anything after that is extra icing on the cake.

Edited January 24, 2019 by Etheus

[Gregster101]

8 minutes ago, Etheus said:

And the entire idea of "rounding out a series' representation" is ridiculous to begin with. At what point is it good enough? As far as I can tell, it's just repeatedly moving the goal post. 

 

Kirby with Kirby, Metaknight, and Dedede is rounded representation. It is the 3 most important characters, without whom the games are incomplete but with whom complete games can be made. You have the hero, the villain, and the rival/anti-hero.

 

Donkey Kong with Donkey Kong, Diddy Kong, and K. Rool is rounded representation. You have the hero, the sidekick, and the villain. That's all you need to have rounded representation. (In fact, you don't even actually need Diddy to have rounded representation.) Anything after that is extra icing on the cake.

Either way, let other people still want those characters and don't be a dick about it.

[Fabulously Olivier]

1 minute ago, Gregster101 said:

Either way, let other people still want those characters and don't be a dick about it.

That's their prerogative and they are entitled to it.

 

Just as it is my choice to want more 3rd parties. I'm not being a dick by thinking that "hey, maybe Doom or Dragon Quest, which have rich and unique sound tracks and settings, would have more to add to Smash than playable character #3 from Nintendo franchise #7." It's certainly no more dickish than you calling me out for my opinion.

[Lord_Brand]

I'd be fine with them adding Dixie or even Waddle Dee if they were part of the default lineup, but I wouldn't want them taking up DLC slots. If they were to add any first party DLCs, they would need to be characters who came along too late into development to make it in the default lineup, and ideally representatives of series not already repped in Smash.

If Square hadn't been so stingy with Final Fantasy, I'd hope to see a Mana or Chrono rep. But adding an Assist Trophy and a Stage on top of another Fighter would be Capcom/Konami levels of generous. :P

Edited January 25, 2019 by Lord_Brand

[Flere210]

Ultimately the point of Smash is being a Nintendo Crossover and a celebration of nintendo history first and foremost. I'd rather have minor/forgotten nintendo characters than famous gaming icons that have nothing to do whit nintendo whatsoever. I love pizza, but i don't want to eat pizza in a japanese restourant. I love FE, but i don't want ike in the next Dissidia.

"Featuring Dante from the Devil May Cry series" is my dream character, but i understand that he is not relevant at any point of nintendo history and objectively should not be in the game. 

DQ games were released mostly on nintendo consoles and were important to the SNES succes, so it makes perfect sense to have a character from there(or Chrono). So are Banjo and Kazoie because they are the protagonists of the biggest non nintendo N64 game and repeesent the nintendo-rare collaboration. 

Doomguy is mostly a symbol of PC gaming imo, even if he had some games on nintendo systems. I'd rather have a Blizzard character (they released Diablo 3 on switch and i read somewhere that they will release overwatch at some point) or Geral of Rivia if i have to pick a PC character. 

Honestly, the only characters that i would outright hate is Master Chief because i consider him  the Xbox symbol, everything else won't be a problem unless is a character that i already hated.

[Lord_Brand]

If they could work in Erik, Olaf, and Baleog as a Pokemon Trainer-esque trio, that'd be neat. Known collectively as the Lost Vikings, you'd be able to switch between them and use their respective combat skills:

• Erik the Swift can run fast, jump higher than Baleog or Olaf, and uses his head, feet, and slingshot to attack. He's the lightest of the three and deals the least damage per hit, though his speed allows him to hit quickly.
• Olaf the Stout is the heaviest and hardest to knock out, can use his shield to block attacks and glide, and uses his gut and derriere to send foes flying. Naturally, he's the slowest of the three.
• Baleog the Fierce has the best attack and range thanks to his sword and bow. He's in the middle in speed and weight, but does tend to be the worst at recovering.

[know_naim]

15 hours ago, Etheus said:

I just don't see the need for more first party characters. What could even be contributed that would be better than a strong 3rd party pick?

 

[...]

Earthbound is ancient history.

F-Zero is dead.

Star Fox is almost dead.

 

 

So revive those! Am I the only one who thinks releasing DLC characters in a close timeframe before/after a new game entry is the coolest thing ever? Presonally I loved how they handled Corrin and Bayonetta. 

Let say Wonderful 102 happens, boom, Wonder Red + maybe an echo announcement. 
New F-Zero = give Cpt. Falcon a partner.

I don't really support the notion that Smash has to be all about gaming history by adding now obsolete characters like the Belmonts (though I love them) or Ryu Hayabusa. After the most recent additions like Joker I think DLC is best suited for "history in the making!" and in that regard there are plenty of strong Nintendo picks as well as good 3rd party opportunities (like Dragon Quest). 

[Fabulously Olivier]

1 hour ago, know_naim said:

 

So revive those! Am I the only one who thinks releasing DLC characters in a close timeframe before/after a new game entry is the coolest thing ever? Presonally I loved how they handled Corrin and Bayonetta. 

Let say Wonderful 102 happens, boom, Wonder Red + maybe an echo announcement. 
New F-Zero = give Cpt. Falcon a partner.

I don't really support the notion that Smash has to be all about gaming history by adding now obsolete characters like the Belmonts (though I love them) or Ryu Hayabusa. After the most recent additions like Joker I think DLC is best suited for "history in the making!" and in that regard there are plenty of strong Nintendo picks as well as good 3rd party opportunities (like Dragon Quest). 

I don't know if that would be necessary or even advisable.

 

Racing games are the most niche and most stagnant genre of games. The only successful racing games are those which lean in the most casual/arcadey direction (cart racers and less realistic racing games) or the complete opposite (hardcore, realistic simulators). F-Zero isn't really either, and it doesn't have the name recognition it used to. The only way I could see it happening would be a genre swap, like if Captain Falcon became the protagonist of a GTA/Yakuza game in the F-Zero universe.

 

Earthbound died having achieved everything it sought to do. At this point, a new game would be made just because people want it, and while that sounds good, it really isn't if there is no artistic motivation for it. Sometimes, a story is complete, and fan demand leads to a Mass Effect Andromeda. No one needs a Mass Effect Andromeda. A remaster is really all we need.

 

Star Fox revivals have been attempted repeatedly, and haven't really worked. Chances are, it will happen again. I doubt the space furries are dead for good.

 

 

Anyway, I agree that recent history in the making is the best history. Let the classics be classics, and embrace the fact that the modern age is producing incredible games so rapidly that a game can be one of the best ever made and still not be game of the year. Characters like Joker, 2B, the Luminary, and Doom Guy are great representations of our new golden age. 

Edited January 25, 2019 by Etheus

[know_naim]

1 hour ago, Etheus said:

Racing games are the most niche and most stagnant genre of games.

Does it matter, though? Fire Emblem, before Awakening took off, was also pretty niche. Same can be said about Xenoblade, since it was a sleeper hit. Arguably Smash helped both series surge in popularity. It definitely didn't hurt, so any revival attempt will only benefit from a Smash presence - regardless how big the initial target audience is. 

I'm on the same page regarding 3rd party reps like the Luminary but if I was Sakurai I would definitely consider at least 1 out of the 5 slots for an upcoming 1st party rep. 

[Fabulously Olivier]

23 minutes ago, know_naim said:

Does it matter, though? Fire Emblem, before Awakening took off, was also pretty niche. Same can be said about Xenoblade, since it was a sleeper hit. Arguably Smash helped both series surge in popularity. It definitely didn't hurt, so any revival attempt will only benefit from a Smash presence - regardless how big the initial target audience is. 

I'm on the same page regarding 3rd party reps like the Luminary but if I was Sakurai I would definitely consider at least 1 out of the 5 slots for an upcoming 1st party rep. 

Where would the push for F-Zero come from? Captain Falcon has been in Smash for almost 20 years. If Smash was to boost F-Zero's popularity like it did for Fire Emblem, wouldn't it have done that a long, long time ago?

 

What that shows me is that Fire Emblem's popularity came from great timing alongside Smash, along with the series being unknown at the time, not actually niche. 

 

And Xenoblade's rise in popularity isn't as heavily tied to Smash, IMO. It has a lot more to do with the recent and conveniently timed revival and Renaissance of the JRPG (which I would credit primarily to Persona 5 being a near perfect JRPG that also hit instant mainstream success) creating a new hunger for these types of games. It was great timing for Xenoblade Chronicles 2 (and it deserves it because it's a great game).

Edited January 25, 2019 by Etheus

[Flere210]

4 hours ago, Etheus said:

Anyway, I agree that recent history in the making is the best history. Let the classics be classics, and embrace the fact that the modern age is producing incredible games so rapidly that a game can be one of the best ever made and still not be game of the year. Characters like Joker, 2B, the Luminary, and Doom Guy are great representations of our new golden age. 

History in the making is not history to begin whit. History has to be evalutated a posteriori years after the events happened, otherwise you can't know the consequences. For example, saying that Awakening saved the franchise now makes way more sense than saying that when the game came out, because right now we know as a fact that FE is going stronger than ever. 

Video games in general have a serious problem with aknowledging their past. No one call "retro readers" the people that read Shakespeare, and they can find every play in a random bookstore. Good luck finding even a genre defining game of 7 years ago in a Video Game store.

 Smash is one of the very few ways to give exposure to important parts of nintendo history. The only reason we are discussing in this forum is because they putted Marth and Roy in Melee instead of some big third party characters of 2000 like Diablo, J.C Denton or Ryo Hazuki. There are many people that only got into retro gaming because X was in smash and they decided to try Xs game, and i want this trend to continue. Whit characters like Joker, it will be the opposite: people that already played Persona 5 would play smash because Joker is in.

And about the golden age, looks up 1998. 2018 doesn't hold a candle to it imo. 

 

Edited January 25, 2019 by Flere210

[Fabulously Olivier]

33 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

History in the making is not history to begin whit. History has to be evalutated a posteriori years after the events happened, otherwise you can't know the consequences. For example, saying that Awakening saved the franchise now makes way more sense than saying that when the game came out, because right now we know as a fact that FE is going stronger than ever. 

Video games in general have a serious problem with aknowledging their past. No one call "retro readers" the people that read Shakespeare, and they can find every play in a random bookstore. Good luck finding even a genre defining game of 7 years ago in a Video Game store.

 Smash is one of the very few ways to give exposure to important parts of nintendo history. The only reason we are discussing in this forum is because they putted Marth and Roy in Melee instead of some big third party characters of 2000 like Diablo, J.C Denton or Ryo Hazuki. There are many people that only got into retro gaming because X was in smash and they decided to try Xs game, and i want this trend to continue. Whit characters like Joker, it will be the opposite: people that already played Persona 5 would play smash because Joker is in.

And about the golden age, looks up 1998. 2018 doesn't hold a candle to it imo. 

 

I think the difference between books and games should be obvious.

 

Writing techniques change and new genres are born/die, but there is no objective advancement in the quality of the contents of books.

 

Video games change in techniques and genres die and are born, but there are also objective improvements to graphics, framerate, camera perspectives, length, quality of life features, and responsiveness over time that would not be possible in the past. A distinction between a retro gamer and a regular one holds more meaning in that regard. 

 

And I disagree. Vehemently. IMO, 2017 was the best year for gaming ever with a deluge of quality games like Persona 5, NieR Automata, The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild, and Super Mario Odyssey. 2018 was almost as good, with God of War, Red Dead Redemption 2, Monster Hunter World, Spider Man, DQ11, and others. These are all incredible, landmark games that deserve to be remembered as some of the best games ever made until such a time in the future as technological advancements allow us to make games that outclass these. And I fully expect 2019 to be another incredible year in this time period (since 2015's Witcher 3) that I, personally, am dubbing as gaming's new golden age.

Edited January 25, 2019 by Etheus

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

I would not mind at all since all my wants are non Nintendo characters. The more variety, the better honestly. I would not be surprised, if more characters are added who also appear in Project X Zone like Dante or Yuri. 

[Faustino]

More 3rd party characters? I say keep them coming.