The rights and wrongs of fanservice

[bethany81707]

As an asexual, often I don't even notice the minor sexservices unless pointed out to me- and frequently, I'll go right back to ignoring it if it's not too jarring. It's the big "shove as much boob as possible in your face" characters that start to make me feel a little ill. Don't get me wrong, I'm OK with women that have busts, but not that much bust! At least they don't have armours with aerolae showing...

If "the Camilla" was a normal archetype that I knew about going in to Fire Emblem, it's likely that you'd have scared me off from the word go. Thankfully, I got into watching Tellius before Awakening came out (possibly New Mystery, too, it took a while for me to look at non-Tellius games closely), so now I can accept there's still a part of the series I can go back to.

[Sunwoo]

1 minute ago, bethany81707 said:

As an asexual, often I don't even notice the minor sexservices unless pointed out to me- and frequently, I'll go right back to ignoring it if it's not too jarring. It's the big "shove as much boob as possible in your face" characters that start to make me feel a little ill. Don't get me wrong, I'm OK with women that have busts, but not that much bust! At least they don't have armours with aerolae showing...

I think in my case it is explicitly the "shove in your face" part that I find very annoying. I don't mind characters with big boobs or scantily clad clothing because I can just ignore them if I don't care for them. But they become a bit harder to ignore if the game is insistent on throwing said unit in my face even though I don't like them, like how it's hard to ignore fanservice if it's been thrown in your face.

Also, I'm a bit put off by all of the sexual fanservice in general. Sometimes, it feels like everything is "waifus" and "husbandos" and manipulating the players' emotions more so than focusing on good writing and character development. And, like ... they're basically pushing pixels with sexual fanservice. I guess I just don't get it why it's such an end-all and why it draws in so many people.

[bethany81707]

12 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

Also, I'm a bit put off by all of the sexual fanservice in general. Sometimes, it feels like everything is "waifus" and "husbandos" and manipulating the players' emotions more so than focusing on good writing and character development. And, like ... they're basically pushing pixels with sexual fanservice. I guess I just don't get it why it's such an end-all and why it draws in so many people.

As someone who's favourite (if only) Fates ship is impossible to do under normal gameplay, I wonder that too. Why invest so much time into writing this stuff if some shipping fans have to wind up writing their own anyway?

[Slumber]

6 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

One reason why fanservice often doesn't work is that it can affect a character to their detriment. Camilla dressing like a prostitute and lusting after Corrin isn't a problem. Its maybe a little awkward but Camilla's history provides some justification. Where Camilla stops working is that this aspect of her personality consumes all others. The conflict between the concubines is fairly obscure part of Camilla that's only mentioned in a few supports but there are lots of supports chains where Camilla spends her C to A support trying to find way for Corrin to notice her. That time could better be spend making Camilla a more interesting and nuanced character. That Corrin is supposed to represent the player also makes it a little shameless.

Pretty much my thoughts.

Though I don't think Camilla is a very good example as "good fanservice", 80% because of the reason you mentioned, where the fanservice aspect completely consumes her character, and the actual justification for it is buried in obscure supports. The other 20% is because of just how over the top Camilla is with it. Even if every aspect of Camilla's personality lined up with her being a fanservice character and it all fit with the story, she as a character takes it waaaaaaay too far in a story you're supposed to be taking seriously. Of the Fates cast, I think Charlotte does a better job at being a character that fits in the world as well as being fanservice, though her outfit is possibly even more ridiculous than Camilla's.

Also, a point against Camilla, IMO, is the part where she lusts after Corrin so hard and how it comes through the game. I know she knows Corrin's not her blood sibling, and I know she's entirely fucked in the head, but it's so skeevy. It's one of the biggest instances in Fates where it seems blatantly obvious that the developers didn't have sincere intentions with her, they just wanted another type of character to fulfill the player's wishes. They had every other archetype of incest pandering, so toss in the crazy lady who is violently aggressive in seducing the main character. Because those types of characters are kinda common these days for some goddamn reason.

Edited January 25, 2019 by Slumber

[Sunwoo]

3 minutes ago, bethany81707 said:

As someone who's favourite (if only) Fates ship is impossible to do under normal gameplay, I wonder that too. Why invest so much time into writing this stuff if some shipping fans have to wind up writing their own anyway?

This kind of brings up another issue with fanservice. You know how a lot of the older games had married couples, single parents, older characters with families and children and significant others, etc.? In Fates and Awakening, we don't get people who are already in relationships or canonically end up with someone else anymore, like Pent and Louise or Bartre and Karla or Calil and Largo. We don't really get parents or married people, like Garcia or Dorcas. Because "fanservice" is also letting players marry whoever they want with little regard for character variety, or something. Also, both Awakening and Fates had that issue where avatarsexuals got far less support options than other characters, like characters only exist to marry off or something.

[Etrurian emperor]

8 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

This kind of brings up another issue with fanservice. You know how a lot of the older games had married couples, single parents, older characters with families and children and significant others, etc.? In Fates and Awakening, we don't get people who are already in relationships or canonically end up with someone else anymore, like Pent and Louise or Bartre and Karla or Calil and Largo. We don't really get parents or married people, like Garcia or Dorcas. Because "fanservice" is also letting players marry whoever they want with little regard for character variety, or something. Also, both Awakening and Fates had that issue where avatarsexuals got far less support options than other characters, like characters only exist to marry off or something.

Aside from ensuring there is no room for married couples I also think the pairing mechanic heavily discourages IS from adding older characters as well. If everyone must be able to marry the young Avatar than everyone in the army must be either an attractive teenager or an attractive young adult which leaves little room for elderly woman like Niime or grizzled veterans like Tauroneo. Its rather telling that the veteran knight in Awakening was 30 at best. 

Fates was a little better in this than Awakening. Xander and Arthur might be in their very late 20's and there are a couple of older characters like Fuuga and Reina. But despite adding a couple of older characters Fates also showed IS is incredibly wary of those characters. Its no coincidence that every character who's middle aged only supports with Corrin and maybe one other character if the writers really couldn't avoid it and had to grant them an additional support through grinded teeth. 

Edited January 25, 2019 by Etrurian emperor

[Sunwoo]

5 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Aside from ensuring there is no room for married couples I also think the pairing mechanic heavily discourages IS from adding older characters as well. If everyone must be able to marry the young Avatar than everyone in the army must be either an attractive teenager or an attractive young adult which leaves little room for elderly woman like Niime or grizzled veterans like Tauroneo. Its rather telling that the veteran knight in Awakening was 30 at best. 

Fates was a little better in this than Awakening. Xander and Arthur might be in their very late 20's and there are a couple of older characters like Fuuga and Reina. But despite adding a couple of older characters Fates also showed IS is incredibly wary of those characters. Its no coincidence that every character who's middle aged only supports with Corrin and maybe one other character if the writers really couldn't avoid it and had to grant them an additional support through grinded teeth. 

Also, if the Corrinsexual characters did get an additional support besides Corrin, it was with someone of the same gender as they were. Flora and Jakob don't support, Flora and Gunter don't support, Reina and Yukimura don't support, and so on. At least Awakening gave us Basilio and Flavia who were limited to A-support, but were opposite gendered Robinsexuals who could support.

It's a shame, because Reina and Yukimura would've made a nice pre-married couple a la Pent and Louise had the developers let them.

[Light Strategist]

2 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

Also, if the Corrinsexual characters did get an additional support besides Corrin, it was with someone of the same gender as they were. Flora and Jakob don't support, Flora and Gunter don't support, Reina and Yukimura don't support, and so on. At least Awakening gave us Basilio and Flavia who were limited to A-support, but were opposite gendered Robinsexuals who could support.

It's a shame, because Reina and Yukimura would've made a nice pre-married couple a la Pent and Louise had the developers let them.

You bringing this up reminds me of how Yen'fay and Say'ri can't support each other which is kinda sad.

[NekoKnight]

In regards to sexual fanservice, I think it's a bit concerning when fans handwave fanservice characters just because their designs are tangentially related to their character. Take for instance, Charlotte. Her main character focus is that she is a gold digger and wants to marry into wealth. On the surface, dressing only in her underwear would make sense for the character but she's trying to be subtle in her seduction, and her outfit is not at all. Perhaps one could argue that it's also part of her character that she's not good at seduction but it seems to me that the character was probably designed with the outfit in mind before the character was written to 'justify' it.

Camilla is also an example.Yes, she has severe separation anxiety which translates to her wanting to be close to people, in particular, the avatar. But this doesn't really make her outfit more in character. Despite the inappropriate and obsessive behavior she has, she never really comes across as wanting to seduce the avatar. She wants the avatar's love but she's not an overtly sexual character. All of that isn't for Corrin, it's for the player to oggle at. The players are the ones being seduced, and if that intention wasn't obvious enough, Camilla's Birthright cutscene has her showing off her tits and ass, including angles Corrin wouldn't even be able to see.

 

[Interdimensional Observer]

3 hours ago, LJwalhout said:

First I want to define what I think fanservice is because according to some people it's just putting pretty girls/boys in a game. Fanservice is way broader

Except the not-sexual kind is typically not what causes controversy here at SF. And I think most people can tell the difference. The one major case of nonsexual fanservice problem is SOL in Fates. Taguel too I guess. And maybe Priam.

Outside of FE, I would say Kirby as of late is nonsexual fanservice done wrong, Returns to Dreamland was fine, Triple Deluxe worked as a game full of old references, but Planet Robobot was uncalled for. It looks like Star Allies became even more of a nostalgia romp, which is bad when you don't add enough new stuff. By comparison, Super Mario Odyssey had a good balance of fanservice and new things. One thing I noticed is that Boos, a classic Mario enemy, never appear in SMO, a little detail showing the game was willing at times to not heed homage to nostalgia in the highest degree.

 

3 hours ago, LJwalhout said:

I guess fe12, fe13 and fe14 are also kinda bad at it

Fanservice in FE12? Well thanks to having to bring back every Archanean who was mysterious unplayable in 3 Book 2, plus the BS characters, they did bloat the roster and probably left the limited writing resources strained. I guess this does count as bad fanservice.

 

3 hours ago, ping said:

Let's go to the Thunder Plains and dance through the eternal thunderstorm before spending hours and hours playing underwater rugby.

And in this case, you actually WANT to do this for the ultimate weapons at full power. Not that Sinny Sin Sin needs 'em to beat, but FFX has a horrendous postgame.

 

2 hours ago, bethany81707 said:

If "the Camilla" was a normal archetype that I knew about going in to Fire Emblem

Honestly, this isn't an archetype at all. Tharja? Maybe. Camilla? Yes. Loki? Yes. Sonya? Mmm... probably not? Nuibaba? Too conservatively dressed and she certainly wasn't in original Gaiden. Shade- Cipher only and who cares about her then!

Sonia? Yes, but she was long before this was ever a thing. And her attire isn't that excessive, you never actually see her fully artwork ingame, her seduction has a purpose, and she never really acts kinky or sultry. She is more if anything Narcian's and Petrine's sister- bravado and ego atop insecurity and weakness. All her lines are "kill HEL and I'm perfect!".

So only two definite characters in this "archetype", loli dragon has more members than that. I won't consider there to be a "Camilla" archetype unless FE3H has one front and center. 

 

1 hour ago, Sunwoo said:

Flora and Jakob don't support

I don't even get why she is counted as a Corrinsexual. She is just as young as any other. At least with Say'ri, she died in Lucina's world (recruitable Den'gue did come from her's right?), so she can't have had a child from the future not 3rd world Mor'gan. What excuse does Flora have?

 

2 hours ago, Sunwoo said:

I guess I just don't get it why it's such an end-all and why it draws in so many people.

It's all a plot by Japanese subversives to waste all the country's sexual energies outside of reproductive sex. That way the population, already over a quarter over 65, can age into a strained welfare state and decline, thus decreasing Japan's geopolitical might. The country supporting these subversives is *dies of tiny poison pellet lodged in me earlier today*.

[Flere210]

1 hour ago, NekoKnight said:

In regards to sexual fanservice, I think it's a bit concerning when fans handwave fanservice characters just because their designs are tangentially related to their character. Take for instance, Charlotte. Her main character focus is that she is a gold digger and wants to marry into wealth. On the surface, dressing only in her underwear would make sense for the character but she's trying to be subtle in her seduction, and her outfit is not at all. Perhaps one could argue that it's also part of her character that she's not good at seduction but it seems to me that the character was probably designed with the outfit in mind before the character was written to 'justify' it.

She comes from a class of people that fight either in a tank top, or completely shirtless and are the most reminescent of the archetipical fantasy barbarian. Charlotte design is as justified as those of every other berserker whitout even mentioning her personality. Or at least every berserker that is clearly meant to be attractive.

[NekoKnight]

9 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

She comes from a class of people that fight either in a tank top, or completely shirtless and are the most reminescent of the archetipical fantasy barbarian. Charlotte design is as justified as those of every other berserker whitout even mentioning her personality. Or at least every berserker that is clearly meant to be attractive.

Arguably, Berserkers are more a showcase of strength and masculinity than male fanservice, so a girly girl in her underwear would be missing the point. Rinka makes a better female version of a Berserker than Charlotte does because she's showing off her muscles.

[Sunwoo]

1 hour ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

I don't even get why she is counted as a Corrinsexual. She is just as young as any other. At least with Say'ri, she died in Lucina's world (recruitable Den'gue did come from her's right?), so she can't have had a child from the future not 3rd world Mor'gan. What excuse does Flora have?

If I recall correctly, I think Flora is only recruitable if you build something in My Castle. Most of the other Corrinsexuals (with the major exceptions of Reina and Gunter) fall under the same rule.

But this doesn't answer the question of why they couldn't make Flora be recruited normally in Conquest and Revelation in the first place.

[henrymidfields]

It would have been a lot better if Camilla dressed conservatively and her big...assets only being implied in the main story, and relegate the fanservice bits to DLCs, Summer Scramble events in Heroes, or other paraphernalia. It's medieval warfare, not medieval high school harem anime.

For all its faults, Awakening did better with Panne. As previously stated, she isn't human, and thus is unaware of the human customs, which includes modesty.

Tokyo Mirage Sessions may have glorified fanservice, but as the story involves modern-day Japanese idols, they are hardly out-of-place.

Rise in Persona 4 is an even better example, as the fanservice is not glorified there, but instead is seen with warts and all, and in fact forms part of a bigger narrative in the dangers of media in society. We are talking about an idol (and a popular one like, say AKB) who struggled with her identity as a high school girl, and as an idol - because many people only saw her as a glorified doll, in contrast to how Yu and Co saw her as their high school friend. Similarly, Kanamin Kitchen in Dancing All Night is also a good case where the fanservice is portrayed as a trope/trait fraught with dangers of possible sexual exploitations in the story. And although neither games are immune to the straight-played fanservices (P4's bath/beach scenes), they are generally minor events that are hardly out-of-place, and few and far in between.

I wouldn't mind if similar sort of plot point applies to newer FE games - like for example, after the home kindom was invaded, the hero(ine) gets caught in the slave trade for prostitutes, and s/he struggles with her/his messed up life, dressing the way s/he does because of how s/he was groomed by the invaders, and how the story paves the way for a medieval #MeToo narrative.

Edited January 26, 2019 by henrymidfields

[Spatha]

Everyone here hit the nail on head regarding rights and wrongs of fanservices, especially with Fates' terrible handling of it.

Still, fanservice isn't even a major problem regarding Fates your still left with poor writing and obvious gameplay balance issues plaguing it.

IMO, As long it doesn't interfere with the story and the gameplay, it's fine.

The likes of Kaine and 2B in the Nier Series made by Yoko Taro is great example of fanservice done right. Both of them are skimpy dressed but it doesn't distract the fact that they are well-written characters in their own right. Their fanservice is just an icing on the cake when it comes to liking these characters.

 

Edited January 26, 2019 by Spatha

[Hawkwing]

2 hours ago, henrymidfields said:

I wouldn't mind if similar sort of plot point applies to newer FE games - like for example, after the home kindom was invaded, the hero(ine) gets caught in the slave trade for prostitutes, and s/he struggles with her/his messed up life, dressing the way s/he does because of how s/he was groomed by the invaders, and how the story paves the way for a medieval #MeToo narrative.

I heavily disagree with this, as Tear Ring Saga had a similar situation, and it came of as more sickening than interesting. In order to get the only dancer in the game, the player had to sacrifice one of their healers to a slaver, and then have to rescue them several chapters later from their new owner. The whole thing is infamous for several reasons (said character is only 15 years old. The player has to pull the trigger on the event. It's the only way to get the only dancer in the entire game and continue said characters subplot to boot. The slavers dialogue hints it won't be the labor kind of slavery. The game is rewarding the player for selling a teenager into slavery!) and I'd rather Fire Emblem keep moving on the path of toning down or removing the more rape-ish villains that were present in the Judgral and GBA games.

[Spatha]

34 minutes ago, Hawkwing said:

I heavily disagree with this, as Tear Ring Saga had a similar situation, and it came of as more sickening than interesting. In order to get the only dancer in the game, the player had to sacrifice one of their healers to a slaver, and then have to rescue them several chapters later from their new owner. The whole thing is infamous for several reasons (said character is only 15 years old. The player has to pull the trigger on the event. It's the only way to get the only dancer in the entire game and continue said characters subplot to boot. The slavers dialogue hints it won't be the labor kind of slavery. The game is rewarding the player for selling a teenager into slavery!) and I'd rather Fire Emblem keep moving on the path of toning down or removing the more rape-ish villains that were present in the Judgral and GBA games.

Yes. It's okay for genocide and violence to be included in FE but even a hint of sexual evil is too much?

There's a reason Valter is memorable as he is and that is how extreme and disturbing he is to audience and everyone in-universe.

 

[Etrurian emperor]

44 minutes ago, Hawkwing said:

and I'd rather Fire Emblem keep moving on the path of toning down or removing the more rape-ish villains that were present in the Judgral and GBA games.

Well, so far that hasn't really happened. Micaiah couldn't even make it past the first chapter without a bandit wanting to sell her off. Later she Aimee and Kurt(Who's not unlikely to be mistaken for a girl) await the ''general's pleasure' which sounds kinda suspicious. The bandits in Echoes are veeeery obvious about wanting to sell Celica and the Whitewings, and Slayde said he wouldn't have been very friendly to Gray's sisters either. Even the light Awakening had the bandit twins going after Anna. 

And that's...fine. I'm mean aside from Valter and Slayde they are pretty much all bandits. And if you're a decent person you're probably not a bandit, especially not a FE bandit. 

[Ottservia]

59 minutes ago, Hawkwing said:

I heavily disagree with this, as Tear Ring Saga had a similar situation, and it came of as more sickening than interesting. In order to get the only dancer in the game, the player had to sacrifice one of their healers to a slaver, and then have to rescue them several chapters later from their new owner. The whole thing is infamous for several reasons (said character is only 15 years old. The player has to pull the trigger on the event. It's the only way to get the only dancer in the entire game and continue said characters subplot to boot. The slavers dialogue hints it won't be the labor kind of slavery. The game is rewarding the player for selling a teenager into slavery!) and I'd rather Fire Emblem keep moving on the path of toning down or removing the more rape-ish villains that were present in the Judgral and GBA games.

I mean wouldn't the fact that it is sickening be the entire point though. I mean not everything in the plot needs to be exciting or thought provoking. Stuff like this can go along way in establishing moral gray and tone of a story. It makes you feel sick to your stomach because YOU made that choice and my guess is that's the entire point and its the greatest strengths video games have as a creative medium being able to experience and make those choices on your own. Then again I have yet to play tear ring saga so I don't know how well the rest of the story is told and if that moment has any insignificant impact or resonates at all the story's overall themes and tone so yeah.

[Hawkwing]

1 hour ago, Spatha said:

Yes. It's okay for genocide and violence to be included in FE but even a hint of sexual evil is too much?

There's a reason Valter is memorable as he is and that is how extreme and disturbing he is to audience and everyone in-universe.

Thing is, there are different ways to use violence. There's cartoony slapstick and gorefests, over-the-top fights and down-to-earth battles,  lighthearted skirmishes and encounters that show how war is hell, etc. The majority of media features violence, and it can be all over the age-ratings board depending on how it is used.

I'm not saying that Fire Emblem hasn't used and can't use hints of rape and other forms of slavery. They were present in the Judgral and GBA games after all, and even Fates and to a lesser degree Awakening have a shocking amount of innuendos in them (to the point where the former would probably have been rated M if it were made a decade earlier. Let that sink in). It's more that there aren't a whole lot of ways to creatively use sexual crimes in general, much less while keeping it within a Teen rating, and using or hinting at those kind of things is often criticized as being a forced and/or desperate way of coming off as "edgy". Far from saying they can't be done right, but I'd rather Fire Emblem focus on other aspects it is stronger in rather than bring this back.

50 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Well, so far that hasn't really happened. Micaiah couldn't even make it past the first chapter without a bandit wanting to sell her off. Later she Aimee and Kurt(Who's not unlikely to be mistaken for a girl) await the ''general's pleasure' which sounds kinda suspicious. The bandits in Echoes are veeeery obvious about wanting to sell Celica and the Whitewings, and Slayde said he wouldn't have been very friendly to Gray's sisters either. Even the light Awakening had the bandit twins going after Anna. 

And that's...fine. I'm mean aside from Valter and Slayde they are pretty much all bandits. And if you're a decent person you're probably not a bandit, especially not a FE bandit.

Again, I'm not fully against removing that aspect of the series entirely (Well, okay. I am, but I also know that's wishful thinking on my part). However, those moments are increasingly becoming the minority since the Tellius games onward, and I say that's a good thing. It means that the random bandits can establish that things like slavery and/or rape can still occur in the land, showing that the world is still a harsh place yet it can do so without having it be a reoccurring theme.

38 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

I mean wouldn't the fact that it is sickening be the entire point though. I mean not everything in the plot needs to be exciting or thought provoking. Stuff like this can go along way in establishing moral gray and tone of a story. It makes you feel sick to your stomach because YOU made that choice and my guess is that's the entire point and its the greatest strengths video games have as a creative medium being able to experience and make those choices on your own. Then again I have yet to play tear ring saga so I don't know how well the rest of the story is told and if that moment has any insignificant impact or resonates at all the story's overall themes and tone so yeah.

Oh it most certainly succeeds in making the world a grayer place, and it does so without any forced edginess, which I can compliment Kaga for.

The problem is not so much that the action exists in and of itself, but instead the factors that surround it. The victim is an underage healer, the slaver has very suggestive dialogue, it's the only way to get a dancer in the game, and it's also the only way to advance the characters subplot.

Yes, the player has a choice in the matter... but unlike other examples of letting the player do something morally dubious for an advantage, you gain nothing later down the line from taking the high road, and outside of the dialogue making the player disgusted and not being able to use a unit for a while, there are no negative gameplay consequences for going through with the event. In other words, the game downright rewards the player for doing something heinous. Despite it being the only instance of this in Tear Ring Saga, there's a reason the moment is infamous.

[Ottservia]

11 minutes ago, Hawkwing said:

Yes, the player has a choice in the matter... but unlike other examples of letting the player do something morally dubious for an advantage, you gain nothing later down the line from taking the high road, and outside of the dialogue making the player disgusted and not being able to use a unit for a while, there are no negative gameplay consequences for going through with the event. In other words, the game downright rewards the player for doing something heinous. Despite it being the only instance of this in Tear Ring Saga, there's a reason the moment is infamous.

fair enough but even if you're rewarded you're still sort of left with that lingering feeling of disgust. Like "what the fuck did I just do?" sort of deal or "I got the dancer but at what moral cost?" I'd argue that the feeling of disgust you get is the consequence of the choice. You benefited from it on a gameplay standpoint but it makes you feel like a shitty person. And that can be used as a great way to showcase that that's just how the world works. Sometimes you have to do shitty and amoral things in order to gain the tactical/practical advantage. is it wrong? repulsive even? abso-fucking-lutely but that's just the way things are and you have to either accept it and move on or do something to change it.

Edited January 26, 2019 by Ottservia

[Hawkwing]

1 minute ago, Ottservia said:

fair enough but even if you're rewarded you're still sort of left with that lingering feeling of disgust. Like "what the fuck did I just do?" sort of deal or "I got the dancer but at what moral cost?" I'd argue that the feeling of disgust you get is the consequence of the choice. You benefited from it on a gameplay standpoint but it makes you feel like a shitty person. And that can be used as a great way to showcase that that's just how the world works. Sometimes you have to do shitty and amoral things in order to gain the tactical/practical advantage. is it wrong? repulsive even? abso-fucking-lutely but that's just the way things are and you have to either accept it or do something to change it.

You should have seen the reactions to the moment in a lets play. It wasn't pretty.

I mostly agree with you. It truly is a disgusting moment, and offering the player a choice to gain a gameplay boost at the cost of doing a morally wrong thing is always interesting, even if it depends on the game for how well it is handled.

Where I disagree is that selling the character into slavery is also the only way to continue their plotline, which continues after they've been rescued and made a dancer. If you decide to do the right thing and not to go through with it, then congratulations! You've just missed out on character development, a paired ending, and some more story.

Which is baffling, because the game allows you to split your army after a certain point, and you get to choice on who goes with each lord, and there are  a surprising amount of unique interactions depending on who you send together and which route they're on. Why there isn't an alternative way the subplot plays out if you decide to keep them a healer is a headscratcher, considering the game has other choices about promoting a character to one thing or another, with their personal story being altered to accommodate for it.

[Ottservia]

4 minutes ago, Hawkwing said:

You should have seen the reactions to the moment in a lets play. It wasn't pretty.

I mostly agree with you. It truly is a disgusting moment, and offering the player a choice to gain a gameplay boost at the cost of doing a morally wrong thing is always interesting, even if it depends on the game for how well it is handled.

Where I disagree is that selling the character into slavery is also the only way to continue their plotline, which continues after they've been rescued and made a dancer. If you decide to do the right thing and not to go through with it, then congratulations! You've just missed out on character development, a paired ending, and some more story.

Which is baffling, because the game allows you to split your army after a certain point, and you get to choice on who goes with each lord, and there are  a surprising amount of unique interactions depending on who you send together and which route they're on. Why there isn't an alternative way the subplot plays out if you decide to keep them a healer is a headscratcher, considering the game has other choices about promoting a character to one thing or another, with their personal story being altered to accommodate for it.

Yeah that makes sense and I agree. Again I have yet to play tear ring saga but hearing about this makes me wanna try it out.

[Strullemia]

IS first needs to show that they can actually write a female lord with the respect that they deserve. So one that doesn't share her game with another male MC (Eirika and Celica) or loses focus to another male MC (Micaiah and Lyn)  before I would ever trust them to write a female lord character with a rape backstory.

I do disagree with the idea that FE games have gone too far because as far as I know they've never said this stuff outright. Even in Fire Emblem 4, one of the darkest Fire Emblem games we don't actually know what exactly happened to Leen after Ares rescues her.

Edited January 26, 2019 by Hekselka

[Slumber]

7 hours ago, Hawkwing said:

I heavily disagree with this, as Tear Ring Saga had a similar situation, and it came of as more sickening than interesting. In order to get the only dancer in the game, the player had to sacrifice one of their healers to a slaver, and then have to rescue them several chapters later from their new owner. The whole thing is infamous for several reasons (said character is only 15 years old. The player has to pull the trigger on the event. It's the only way to get the only dancer in the entire game and continue said characters subplot to boot. The slavers dialogue hints it won't be the labor kind of slavery. The game is rewarding the player for selling a teenager into slavery!) and I'd rather Fire Emblem keep moving on the path of toning down or removing the more rape-ish villains that were present in the Judgral and GBA games.

Plum in TRS is a very weird case. Mostly because IIRC, it's the one case where Kaga is clearly playing with our expectations to mess with us.

Up until the kidnapping in question, the vague words of the slaver has us thinking the worst. And if I'm remembering correctly, which I think I am because I was expecting the worst, once we get back to Plum, there's not much to indicate anything sexual happened. When Barts shows up at the bar to rescue her, the slaver immediately tells him that nobody gets to touch Plum, and once Barts is done kicking the shit out of the slaver, he's mostly upset because he won't be able to see Plum dancing anymore.

Compared to the cases like Lara, which are left entirely for you to interpret on your own, and Leen, which... very much only has one real thing to take away, I think the Plum case wasn't meant to be as dire.

Edited January 26, 2019 by Slumber