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Mythic Hero candidates


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1 minute ago, omegaxis1 said:

First of all, the concept of strength is way too loose to even count. You expect me to believe that the Feral Laguz, Izuka, and others like Tormod are able to avoid being petrified? Tormod is a kid with magical abilities, but there are hundreds and thousands of other soldiers and mages in the war that oughta be way stronger than him, but they got petrified. Also, everything suggests that she fired that attack at full power and that she is recharging back to full power to do it again. But why? There is literally only a handful of people around. Not an entire continent's population. She doesn't need to recharge her full power. The only one that mentions being weakened from just waking up is Yune, who repeatedly shows that she's not at full strength, whereas Ashera shows to do many more feats of power repeatedly with no drawbacks. She fires Judgment, de-petrifies an army, blesses them, then starts to repeatedly revive them. All of these consume power. It makes no sense if she does this, but we're expected to believe she's recharging or some BS.

What does arrogance have anything to do with sending soldiers that are already there for you? Why does she need to drain her power by de-petrifying others and then blessing them? If she was truly arrogant, she wouldn't waste her strength to send goons to delay them. The ones that are already there that would require zero effort from her would better equate to arrogance because that means she doesn't have to do anything.

Yes, I expect you to believe that Tormod avoided being petrified. Tormod's may be a kid, but he is plenty powerful and obviously has experience fighting battles. He's fought with Ike and Micaiah and taken "hundreds and thousands" of soldiers and mages who "oughta be way stronger than him", but clearly they weren't. I think you're underselling Tormod. Izuka only fights in that one chapter so I don't know how strong he would've been had he been fighting against the player more regularly, but the feral laguz are "unnatural". The Branded were already missed because they were not something Ashera knew about, or "unnatural", so it's not a stretch to say maybe that's why she missed the feral ones. That said where the fuck is Izuka summoning them from anyway.

Have you considered that maybe de-petrifying an army and giving them weak blessings might not take that much power from her ? The blessings that she gave to the soldiers were apparently weaker than the ones she'd given to her three Heroes, and what Yune gave to the endgame party, so it's possible she gave them the most weakest of blessings that didn't take much from her power. Which in that case wouldn't be as draining as you claim. As for her charging up to full power again, is it outright said that she is only doing that just to take out the group? Or is she aiming to destroy the world this time, too? The covenant stated that if mankind broke its promise to Ashera, that she would destroy this world and start anew. Petrifying the people was stated to be "passing her judgment". So was the second blast meant to destroy the world and start over?

Yune was also sealed in a medallion for hundreds of years while Ashera was sleeping comfortably in her tower. It's possible that Yune's powers were more weakened because she was purposely sealed away so that she couldn't cause mayhem.

Also, arrogance comes in many different qualities. Sure, what you listed is also arrogance, but so is what I listed. Why bother getting your hands dirty crushing a gnat when blind followers will be scrambling over themselves to do it for you instead? If you're so arrogant you think the few handful of people you missed can be easily taken care of, why send out your strongest and waste their time and energy when surely anyone would suffice?

At this point, I think we'll just need to agree to disagree because what you find inconsistent about Ashera I can explain why it's not. And I know you're just going to respond to my post with things you find as "plot holes" which I can justify as still making sense. There's really no point in continuing this anymore.

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36 minutes ago, Faellin said:

Would Gotoh and Athos be considered godlike figures for this? They are some of the strongest mortals in the FE universe based on what we've seen. So I feel they would be good choices.

Gotoh was a divine dragon, but lost use of his dragonstone, but has huge knowledge in magic and stuff. Athos is human, but he’s otherwise similar to the former, being one of the few instances that a character in the backstory of their respective game fully appears, AND is playable

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I think the only reasons why Ashera and Yune looks more God-like it's because unlike the Divine Dragons; they don't seem to be part of a species.

Naga seems less special because of being part of a group despite she being very powerful. And I wouldn't surprise me if Naga is actually is stronger that the Tellius Goddesses in Lore.

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I think people are expecting a bit too much when I read speculation about Anri, Ashera's original form or the Elibean Legends. While important from a lore perspective they are all pretty much nobodies in the personality department. FE Heroes is still a Gacha game so I think characters that never even got included in the games won't attract much buyers and as such IS won't put them in. 

The ones that get into Heroes will be the ones that played a part in the stories of their respective games. Figures like Sephiran, Dheginsea, Athos, Nergal, Medeus and Anankos.

Edited by Etrurian emperor
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3 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I think people are expecting a bit too much when I read speculation about Anri, Ashera's original form or the Elibean Legends. While important from a lore perspective they are all pretty much nobodies in the personality department. FE Heroes is still a Gacha game so I think characters that never even got included in the games won't attract much buyers and as such IS won't put them in. 

The ones that get into Heroes will be the ones that played a part in the stories of their respective games. Figures like Sephiran, Dheginsea, Athos, Nergal, Medeus and Anankos.

Do you think Duma's Memory was enough to explain his character?

But anyway; I would add Mila and Naga to that list... for obvious reasons xD.

Edited by Troykv
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4 minutes ago, Troykv said:

Do you think Duma's Memory was enough to explain his character?

But anyway; I would add Mila and Naga to that list... for obvious reasons xD.

Kinda. With Duma we have a design for both his humanoid and dragon form, we encountered him as a final boss and the Memory scene gives a brief view of how he was before Duma became mad. 

I don't think many Echoes players are that attached to Duma but the devs do have things to work with unlike some other founding heroes who lack either a personality or even a general design. 

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1 hour ago, Sunwoo said:

Yes, I expect you to believe that Tormod avoided being petrified. Tormod's may be a kid, but he is plenty powerful and obviously has experience fighting battles. He's fought with Ike and Micaiah and taken "hundreds and thousands" of soldiers and mages who "oughta be way stronger than him", but clearly they weren't. I think you're underselling Tormod. Izuka only fights in that one chapter so I don't know how strong he would've been had he been fighting against the player more regularly, but the feral laguz are "unnatural". The Branded were already missed because they were not something Ashera knew about, or "unnatural", so it's not a stretch to say maybe that's why she missed the feral ones. That said where the fuck is Izuka summoning them from anyway.

1

How do you exactly define "unnatural" exactly? The Feral Laguz are still laguz, just maddened and driven to insanity. They are still laguz nonetheless and therefore subject to petrification. And Izuka is a cowardly scientist that doesn't try fight but escape so that by no means indicates that he's strong. And Tormod might have participated in one war, but he's a kid. There are many more that have trained and attained much more experience than him. That's why the concept of strength is way too loose. Hell, they even call out on it and say that there might not even be any rule behind who gets petrified and who doesn't. The petrification is pure plot convenience.

1 hour ago, Sunwoo said:

Have you considered that maybe de-petrifying an army and giving them weak blessings might not take that much power from Firsther ? The blessings that she gave to the soldiers were apparently weaker than the ones she'd given to her three Heroes, and what Yune gave to the endgame party, so it's possible she gave them the most weakest of blessings that didn't take much from her power. Which in that case wouldn't be as draining as you claim. As for her charging up to full power again, is it outright said that she is only doing that just to take out the group? Or is she aiming to destroy the world this time, too? The covenant stated that if mankind broke its promise to Ashera, that she would destroy this world and start anew. Petrifying the people was stated to be "passing her judgment". So was the second blast meant to destroy the world and start over?

5

First, her Judgment literally petrified a lot of people. Deptrifying would still take power, and she did that to many folks. And minor blessings they may be, recall that she does it to a LOT of people. Small blessings pile up to be seriously high when done to enough people. She gave blessings to an army. Giving 1 person a major blessing of 100 will consume the same amount of power if you give 100 people a minor blessing of 1. And yes, it is outright stated that she is charging up so that everyone is petrified, no exceptions. 

Quote

Yune:
“We have to hurry. I can feel Ashera’s power building. It’s all over if we get turned to stone, too. All right, everyone, it’s up to us! What’s your name?”

1
Quote

Yune:
“…We can’t win. All we do is kill the flesh, but she brings the flesh back… We need more time… No, there is no more time! Everyone else will be turned to stone… and I will be lonely forever. There’s nothing more that I can do! I’ve failed… I’ve failed.”

Speaking of which, she is still also going on infinitum on raising the dead and having them fight us. That has to also consume power. Even if minimal, the amount of people being raised and the constant usage of it is again something that would cause them to expend more power as it all adds up.

1 hour ago, Sunwoo said:

Yune was also sealed in a medallion for hundreds of years while Ashera was sleeping comfortably in her tower. It's possible that Yune's powers were more weakened because she was purposely sealed away so that she couldn't cause mayhem.

1

That's where the other inconsistency falls in place. What affects one affects the other. If something happens to Yune, it happens to Ashera, and vice versa. Hence why Ashera wanting to kill Yune would result in her own death as well. So their varying power levels where Yune only gets strong enough to give blessings when the plot allows for it becomes inconsistent while Ashera is pulling off all these other things.

1 hour ago, Sunwoo said:

Also, arrogance comes in many different qualities. Sure, what you listed is also arrogance, but so is what I listed. Why bother getting your hands dirty crushing a gnat when blind followers will be scrambling over themselves to do it for you instead? If you're so arrogant you think the few handful of people you missed can be easily taken care of, why send out your strongest and waste their time and energy when surely anyone would suffice?

1

Because of what I stated above. It doesn't make any sense of it being arrogance when you are constantly expending your power when you're supposed to be charging up to finish them off. If anything, that becomes less arrogance and just stupidity then. Also, the argument you gave at the end just made it impossible to work. Ashera doesn't care about her "strongest" soldiers. Even THEY are meant to be petrified. Let them go and delay them so not only does she not have to expend energy, but will be able to get rid of said "strongest" soldiers. So de-petrifying the others only end up making less sense because of that.

1 hour ago, Sunwoo said:

At this point, I think we'll just need to agree to disagree because what you find inconsistent about Ashera I can explain why it's not. And I know you're just going to respond to my post with things you find as "plot holes" which I can justify as still making sense. There's really no point in continuing this anymore.

Probably, as I'll always be able to counter them right back, so it'll will just keep being a cycle.

 

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25 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I think people are expecting a bit too much when I read speculation about Anri, Ashera's original form or the Elibean Legends. While important from a lore perspective they are all pretty much nobodies in the personality department. FE Heroes is still a Gacha game so I think characters that never even got included in the games won't attract much buyers and as such IS won't put them in. 

The ones that get into Heroes will be the ones that played a part in the stories of their respective games. Figures like Sephiran, Dheginsea, Athos, Nergal, Medeus and Anankos.

I think a good measure is, is the character available to vote for on CYL? If not, they're probably not on the radar.

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24 minutes ago, Othin said:

I think a good measure is, is the character available to vote for on CYL? If not, they're probably not on the radar.

I just hope that one CYL everyone just says "fuck it" and vote's for amy, I would love that so much.

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8 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Ashera brings bodies without souls. That's not truly reviving the dead. And Yune only uses the power of Sacrifice that Micaiah already has, as it is the power to heal without using any magic, and even then, it's used with such a timing that it had to be at the precise moment. However, even if you go along with that, why did Ashunera, who oughta be much more powerful than both, not bring back the lives lost by the Great Flood? Seems like something she oughta be able to do.

As I said, Dragons possess a level of power far above that of humans. Humans using magic to create Morphs is just paltry compared to what dragons are capable of doing. This is because as Nergal says, dragons possess quintessence and power far greater than any human. And the knowledge they possess is far greater than that of humans too. 

So Idunn is utilizing capabilities that are far greater than what humans can do. However, the only reasons Divine Dragons DON'T do it is because it's a violation of the laws of nature. And as I said, even the concept of Ashunera creating life is really not that great when you realize that she never created sentient life. Rather, natural evolution did that instead. Also, she didn't create the world. She existed in a world that's already there, but only covered in water. I guess she created the land, so there's that. 

Why doesn't god just end hunger in Africa and resurrect everyone killed in World War II? Even if one has the power to do so that doesn't mean they have the inclination. Doing everything for the people and protecting them from everything is what Mila did (and even then I doubt she was reviving everyone who died) and it made the people weak and corrupt. 

I never disputed dragons have a power far above humans. What I said was that no being has been seen creating something from nothing, except supposedly Ashunera. Having a large amount of quintessence to create war dragons still isn't the power of creation as it's still following the law of conservation of mass energy. That's the only way we can make sense of what Naga says as it's seen that dragons and even humans can create things in the world of Archanea.

7 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Not quite. Earth dragons are the closest in strength to the Divine Dragons, but not necessarily their rivals. Dark Dragons though are equal to the Divine Dragon, though Medeus was not yet fully revived at the time.

You have a source for that? Because any info on what the deal is with Dark Dragons seems to be nonexistant.

6 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Kurth?

Kurth would be ballin as a mythic hero. He got pretty shafted in his own game, never even appearing a single time despite his major importance.

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8 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Which is honestly BS when you think about it. Like, Elibe shows that Divine Dragons can create War Dragons, which are similar to Morphs. They are living creatures. 

War Dragons are empty shells and implied to be made of recycled materials similar to morphs and both are similar to clones. I wouldn't consider cloning an individual the power of creation.

Its like how someone who assembles a robot from pieces they bought isn't in the same category as the person who made the robot from scratch.

5 hours ago, Faellin said:

Would Gotoh and Athos be considered godlike figures for this? They are some of the strongest mortals in the FE universe based on what we've seen. So I feel they would be good choices.

Gotoh is a Divine dragon so for sure.

Athos and Bramminond I would say yes to. They figured out how to extend their life to live like the dragons do and literally almost broke the rules of reality. with their man made weapons.

15 minutes ago, Jotari said:

You have a source for that? Because any info on what the deal is with Dark Dragons seems to be nonexistant.

 

In fairness, that is implied. Xane describes Earth Dragons as almost as strong as Divine Dragons, while Loptous, who is confirmed as as a Shadow Dragon on the old site, is frequently described as Naga's equal.

Medeus's Shadow Dragon also no longer takes effective damage from Mist Breath and has equal or higher base stats then Divine Dragons in all versions of the game.

Edited by Emperor Hardin
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31 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Why doesn't god just end hunger in Africa and resurrect everyone killed in World War II? Even if one has the power to do so that doesn't mean they have the inclination. Doing everything for the people and protecting them from everything is what Mila did (and even then I doubt she was reviving everyone who died) and it made the people weak and corrupt. 

I never disputed dragons have a power far above humans. What I said was that no being has been seen creating something from nothing, except supposedly Ashunera. Having a large amount of quintessence to create war dragons still isn't the power of creation as it's still following the law of conservation of mass energy. That's the only way we can make sense of what Naga says as it's seen that dragons and even humans can create things in the world of Archanea.

1

Yeah, Ashunera is not the larger than life omnipotent god that we speak of in reality. Ashunera is an emotional and existing deity with power. The fact that she had an emotional outburst that caused the Great Flood shows that she's not some wise sage that has a higher understanding. So the argument right there is extremely poor. 

So they claim. Nothing really suggests that Ashunera even truly created life from actual nothing. For all we know, all she did was create shells and the spirits that exist around everything was made into said shells. So the ability to create war dragons IS creating life, as War Dragons have shown to even show sentience.

36 minutes ago, Jotari said:

You have a source for that? Because any info on what the deal is with Dark Dragons seems to be nonexistant.

What @Emperor Hardin said.

26 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

War Dragons are empty shells and implied to be made of recycled materials similar to morphs and both are similar to clones. I wouldn't consider cloning an individual the power of creation.

Its like how someone who assembles a robot from pieces they bought isn't in the same category as the person who made the robot from scratch.

1

How can one actually say that they are truly empty shells, though? If the spirit/soul inside the shell is so primitive that it has yet to mature, then it's nothing more than just an infant, yet to fully forge an identity and form individuality. But War Dragons have indicated to be capable of holding sentience, or at the very least Ain did.

Hell, the Morphs that Nergal created also held sentience too, with Sonia trying to believe that she was perfect and such and a real person. Since War Dragons are like the dragon version of Morphs, it might take a slower time because there's so much power from them. Though because they were made for war purposes, and created from a dragon who's soul was crushed, that might have caused problems with the ability to form sentience as fast. 

But if they hold sentience, able to show signs of thought, even forge individuality, then you created life. 

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3 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

How can one actually say that they are truly empty shells, though? If the spirit/soul inside the shell is so primitive that it has yet to mature, then it's nothing more than just an infant, yet to fully forge an identity and form individuality. But War Dragons have indicated to be capable of holding sentience, or at the very least Ain did.

Hell, the Morphs that Nergal created also held sentience too, with Sonia trying to believe that she was perfect and such and a real person. Since War Dragons are like the dragon version of Morphs, it might take a slower time because there's so much power from them. Though because they were made for war purposes, and created from a dragon who's soul was crushed, that might have caused problems with the ability to form sentience as fast. 

But if they hold sentience, able to show signs of thought, even forge individuality, then you created life. 

I too think War Dragons and Morphs have a soul, however I don't think Idenn or Nergal truly created them so much as recycled them. Again I'd compare it to how a scientist who creates a clone of another human being, the clone is alive and everything, yet the scientist didn't create life as he didn't create the DNA and the genetics himself.

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1 minute ago, Emperor Hardin said:

I too think War Dragons and Morphs have a soul, however I don't think Idenn or Nergal truly created them so much as recycled them. Again I'd compare it to how a scientist who creates a clone of another human being, the clone is alive and everything, yet the scientist didn't create life as he didn't create the DNA and the genetics himself.

The concept of a soul is rather interesting to me in Fire Emblem. Magic is from energy that is borrowed from the spirits that exist around us. In such a case, what is the difference between a spirit and a soul? 

I always theorized that all souls are just spirits that have matured by existing in the physical plane. All spirits are primitive, but as they exist in the material world, they mature and flourish, forging an individuality. So all Morphs and War Dragons would hold a primitive spirit in them, that simply needs to mature. So I don't truly think they are some recycled soul. 

Now, the carbon copy Morphs that Nergal created, those very likely had recycled souls. But the ones like Sonia, Ephidel, Limstella, etc. are spirits that matured after being housed in an empty shell. 

If we can use that for Archanea, recall how in New Mystery, Arlen stated that reviving Gharnef's body without a soul would just create some monstrosity. Well, a body without a soul but is alive may actually just house a primitive spirit, but is uncontrolled and thus would act out as a monster. 

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1 hour ago, Emperor Hardin said:

In fairness, that is implied. Xane describes Earth Dragons as almost as strong as Divine Dragons, while Loptous, who is confirmed as as a Shadow Dragon on the old site, is frequently described as Naga's equal.

Medeus's Shadow Dragon also no longer takes effective damage from Mist Breath and has equal or higher base stats then Divine Dragons in all versions of the game.

So vague and speculatory at best like all things relating to Dark Dragons. I think it's obvious that Shadow Dragons are supposedly more powerful than Earth Dragons, but I don't think it can definitively be said if they're equal to, stronger, or even weaker than Divine Dragons. Remember all the dragons were way more powerful back in the day before the degradation. Using stats is also a baseless thing to compare as of course the final boss is going to have better stats than a recruitable unit.

Loptous is confirmed as a Shadow Dragon on what old site? I don't have a hard time believing it at all since the sprite for his tome has the same iguana ears as Dark Dragon Medeus, but I haven't seen any Kaga interviews or anything confirming it as fact.

35 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Yeah, Ashunera is not the larger than life omnipotent god that we speak of in reality. Ashunera is an emotional and existing deity with power. The fact that she had an emotional outburst that caused the Great Flood shows that she's not some wise sage that has a higher understanding. So the argument right there is extremely poor. So they claim. Nothing really suggests that Ashunera even truly created life from actual nothing. For all we know, all she did was create shells and the spirits that exist around everything was made into said shells. So the ability to create war dragons IS creating life, as War Dragons have shown to even show sentience.

I'm a lowly human and even I can understand that making the entire population of the world immortal and living in a paradise of bliss would not be an ideal situation. Just because maybe you'd resurrect the dead on a daily basis if you were a god doesn't mean an entity that believes otherwise is an idiot for not doing so. And her not doing it doesn't mean she can't do it either, if that's what you're arguing (because frankly in the eight hours I slept I've lost sight about what you actually think or are trying to achieve entirely). And, and, even if she can't do it, what of it? What does that actually mean? As someone else pointed out reviving units is not a part of the gameplay of Tellius. It's not a fundamental aspect of their world, so her (theoretically) not being able to do it proves nothing. Sticking to just the facts we know that A)Ashera can revive the dead in the form of zombies, B)Yune could revive someone very recently deceased C)Both Ashera and Yune are weaker than Ashunera. Conclusion, Ashunera may be able to revive the dead like other characters (both gods and not gods) can in other games. In the end it doesn't matter because it doesn't prove anything one way or the other.

35 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

How can one actually say that they are truly empty shells, though? If the spirit/soul inside the shell is so primitive that it has yet to mature, then it's nothing more than just an infant, yet to fully forge an identity and form individuality. But War Dragons have indicated to be capable of holding sentience, or at the very least Ain did.

Hell, the Morphs that Nergal created also held sentience too, with Sonia trying to believe that she was perfect and such and a real person. Since War Dragons are like the dragon version of Morphs, it might take a slower time because there's so much power from them. Though because they were made for war purposes, and created from a dragon who's soul was crushed, that might have caused problems with the ability to form sentience as fast. 

But if they hold sentience, able to show signs of thought, even forge individuality, then you created life. 

Why are you so hung up on sentience? (Almost) Any living being can create another living being with some degree of sentience. My parents created a sentient life form and yours did too. It literally happens every single day. Even Naga herself created a sentient being called Tiki, but then she still clearly says she holds not the power of making (or unmaking, despite the fact that it's proven Divine Dragons can destroy souls). Conclusion, Naga can only be talking about creating on a way that goes beyond the construction of life using other materials. I've already said this like twice.

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2 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I'm a lowly human and even I can understand that making the entire population of the world immortal and living in a paradise of bliss would not be an ideal situation. Just because maybe you'd resurrect the dead on a daily basis if you were a god doesn't mean an entity that believes otherwise is an idiot for not doing so. And her not doing it doesn't mean she can't do it either, if that's what you're arguing (because frankly in the eight hours I slept I've lost sight about what you actually think or are trying to achieve entirely). And, and, even if she can't do it, what of it? What does that actually mean? As someone else pointed out reviving units is not a part of the gameplay of Tellius. It's not a fundamental aspect of their world, so her (theoretically) not being able to do it proves nothing. Sticking to just the facts we know that A)Ashera can revive the dead in the form of zombies, B)Yune could revive someone very recently deceased C)Both Ashera and Yune are weaker than Ashunera. Conclusion, Ashunera may be able to revive the dead like other characters (both gods and not gods) can in other games. In the end it doesn't matter because it doesn't prove anything one way or the other.

4

Once again, Ashunera is not mentioned to have had that kind of emotional maturity, especially since it was an emotional outburst that caused her to wipe out nearly all life on the planet. If it was a mistake that she caused, then her attempt at rectifying HER mistake was to cast off her emotions, which did not help at all. You're trying to give Ahusnera some kind of higher understanding depth that Ashunera is clearly indicated to not have had until she revived once more at the end of RD. 

And as I mentioned up there, her inability to truly revive the dead is but one factor. 

8 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Why are you so hung up on sentience? (Almost) Any living being can create another living being with some degree of sentience. Naga herself created a sentient being called Tiki. But even then, she still clearly says she holds not the power of making (or unmaking, despite the fact that it's proven Divine Dragons can destroy souls). Conclusion, Naga can only be talking about creating on a way that goes beyond the construction of life using other materials. I've already said this like twice.

Because, the concept of Ashunera creating life is that she created life as animals, but it wasn't even considered a true life until they evolved into the Zunanma, as that was the point they held sentience. But this took years of evolution to take place. Nothing confirms that Ashunera truly created those lives from nothing, but rather did the same thing as creating Morphs and War Dragons. 

Tiki was born, not made. 

The same reason why Divine Dragons in Elibe refused to make the War Dragons. It's a violation of nature. 

Naga claiming not to hold the power of making is questionable whether she can or cannot. But the point is that the power of creation is not truly limited to Ashunera. Other entities can and have created life. Whether Ashunera made them one way or if its the exact same way, it isn't confirmed. So this goes both ways.

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41 minutes ago, Jotari said:

So vague and speculatory at best like all things relating to Dark Dragons. I think it's obvious that Shadow Dragons are supposedly more powerful than Earth Dragons, but I don't think it can definitively be said if they're equal to, stronger, or even weaker than Divine Dragons. Remember all the dragons were way more powerful back in the day before the degradation. Using stats is also a baseless thing to compare as of course the final boss is going to have better stats than a recruitable unit.

Loptous is confirmed as a Shadow Dragon on what old site? I don't have a hard time believing it at all since the sprite for his tome has the same iguana ears as Dark Dragon Medeus, but I haven't seen any Kaga interviews or anything confirming it as fact.

 

Well in FE12, the Shadow Dragon class has the same base stats as Divine Dragons which the developers didn't need to do. The Earth Dragon class doesn't have higher base stats then the Divine Dragon class in FE3 at the very least, unlike the Shadow Dragon class(which can also fly in FE3). If TRS is taken to account, the unused Divine Dragon class is even a white version of the Shadow Dragon class.

Here we go, had to go for an archive link as unfortunately it is a redirect now(is the museum closed now)? The Loptous tome description on the Fire Emblem museum, which Kaga used to run I believe, calls Loptous a Shadow Dragon.

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33 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Once again, Ashunera is not mentioned to have had that kind of emotional maturity, especially since it was an emotional outburst that caused her to wipe out nearly all life on the planet. If it was a mistake that she caused, then her attempt at rectifying HER mistake was to cast off her emotions, which did not help at all. You're trying to give Ahusnera some kind of higher understanding depth that Ashunera is clearly indicated to not have had until she revived once more at the end of RD. 

And as I mentioned up there, her inability to truly revive the dead is but one factor. 

It's not a higher understanding of things, it's common bloody sense.

33 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Because, the concept of Ashunera creating life is that she created life as animals, but it wasn't even considered a true life until they evolved into the Zunanma, as that was the point they held sentience. But this took years of evolution to take place. Nothing confirms that Ashunera truly created those lives from nothing, but rather did the same thing as creating Morphs and War Dragons. 

Why aren't animals considered true life? That sounds pretty speciest of you. Once again you're defining sentience as the be all and end all of everything for absolutely no reason. Naga doesn't talk about sentient life. Hell she doesn't even talk about life at all. All she says is that she and Grima (who can create risen by the by) don't have the power of Making. Given that they clearly can make things, this can only, only be in reference to the idea of making something from absolute nothing. Ie violating the idea of conservation of mass energy. It doesn't even have to be life. Naga considers herself not a god because she cannot make matter. This is the fourth time I've explained this to you and for some reason you're still talking about Morphs and War Dragons and the fact that she didn't make the Zunanma. Those points aren't relevant because they're about something completely different.

33 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Tiki was born, not made. 

Indeed. What's your point?

33 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Tiki was born, not made. 

The same reason why Divine Dragons in Elibe refused to make the War Dragons. It's a violation of nature. 

Naga claiming not to hold the power of making is questionable whether she can or cannot. But the point is that the power of creation is not truly limited to Ashunera. Other entities can and have created life. Whether Ashunera made them one way or if its the exact same way, it isn't confirmed. So this goes both ways.

Now you're right in saying nothing confirms how Ashunera created the first life, but then again nothing confirms that she was even telling the truth and she's not a demiurge. You can cast doubt on anything by saying "Nothing confirms that person did that thing in the very precise way I define it because the script didn't go into minute detail." What we know is that she created life when no life existed before which is intrinsically different from creating Summoned Units, Morphs or War Dragons which require some form of preexisting energy or quintessence derived from something living (presumably in the War Dragons case as we don't have details on exactly Idoun does it which I noted in the beginning).

18 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Well in FE12, the Shadow Dragon class has the same base stats as Divine Dragons which the developers didn't need to do. The Earth Dragon class doesn't have higher base stats then the Divine Dragon class in FE3 at the very least, unlike the Shadow Dragon class(which can also fly in FE3). If TRS is taken to account, the unused Divine Dragon class is even a white version of the Shadow Dragon class.

Here we go, had to go for an archive link as unfortunately it is a redirect now(is the museum closed now)? The Loptous tome description on the Fire Emblem museum, which Kaga used to run I believe, calls Loptous a Shadow Dragon.

I don't think the archive link worked given there's images of Heroes Book 3 up there. I do believe you though, I'd just like to see the info myself. On an unrelated note that website has just revealed to me that Chrom's Japanese name is Chromium which I find simultaneously hilarious, silly and cool.

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4 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I don't think the archive link worked given there's images of Heroes Book 3 up there. I do believe you though, I'd just like to see the info myself. On an unrelated note that website has just revealed to me that Chrom's Japanese name is Chromium which I find simultaneously hilarious, silly and cool.

https://web.archive.org/web/20150426185239/http://www.nintendo.co.jp/fe/fe_museum/seisen/item/index.html

This should work.

The Loptous tome descriptions calls the dragon inside a Shadow Dragon.

Also I just noticed the Shadow Dragon class in TRS has the same terrain skill as the Earth Dragon class in the game in addition to looking like a Divine Dragon. Wonder if it means anything.

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1 minute ago, Jotari said:

It's not a higher understanding of things, it's common bloody sense.

Clearly it isn't, otherwise it would have been bloody common sense to realize that casting away emotions would be a stupid idea. 

5 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Why aren't animals considered true life? That sounds pretty speciest of you. Once again you're defining sentience as the be all and end all of everything for absolutely no reason. Naga doesn't talk about sentient life. Hell she doesn't even talk about life at all. All she says is that she and Grima (who can create risen by the by) don't have the power of Making. Given that they clearly can make things, this can only, only be in reference to the idea of making something from absolute nothing. Ie violating the idea of conservation of mass energy. It doesn't even have to be life. Naga considers herself not a god because she cannot make matter. This is the fourth time I've explained this to you and for some reason you're still talking about Morphs and War Dragons and the fact that she didn't make the Zunanma. Those points aren't relevant because they're about something completely different.

Indeed. What's your point?

Now you're right in saying nothing confirms how Ashunera created the first life, but then again nothing confirms that she was even telling the truth and she's not a demiurge. You can cast doubt on anything by saying "Nothing confirms that person did that thing in the very precise way I define it because the script didn't go into minute detail." What we know is that she created life when no life existed before which is intrinsically different from creating Summoned Units, Morphs or War Dragons which require some form of energy or quintessence (presumably in the War Dragons case as we don't have details on exactly Idoun does it which I noted in the beginning).

4

Mostly because that's how Ashunera seems to see them as. Nothing really, or rather, nothing that works with her. She created life in the effort to escape solitude. But none held any sentience until they evolved to do so. Which is odd that she claims to have created the Zunanma when that wasn't her creation, but rather evolution on its own. 

Well, I guess in regards to creation, Ashunera did create the continents and such on a planet of water, which is an impressive feat. But when it comes to creating life, other deities have performed similar feats with her. 

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27 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Clearly it isn't, otherwise it would have been bloody common sense to realize that casting away emotions would be a stupid idea. 

Her only other options were to let her emotions run wild or destroy herself. She was caught between a rock and a hard place by being a fallible being.

27 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Mostly because that's how Ashunera seems to see them as. Nothing really, or rather, nothing that works with her. She created life in the effort to escape solitude. But none held any sentience until they evolved to do so. Which is odd that she claims to have created the Zunanma when that wasn't her creation, but rather evolution on its own. 

Let's assume the Abrahamic god that created the universe is real. My parents still conceived me. Does that mean I am not a product of god? Ashunera made the ancestors of the Zunanma so yes she created them in the same way everything of our universe could be said to be a product of the creator deity. If you create the components of something, then you created the arranged version of those components. Like the s simile Hardin used above about someone assembling a robot versus someone who designed and manufactured one. That's the whole issue. Ashunera is suggested to have been able to make the components of existence while Naga, Idoun, Nergal, Grima, Silque etc can only alter existing things. This goes as far as making inearth matter living, but it's still not the power of creation (or as Naga terms it, Making).

27 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Well, I guess in regards to creation, Ashunera did create the continents and such on a planet of water, which is an impressive feat. But when it comes to creating life, other deities have performed similar feats with her. 

No they haven't. No other entity in the Fire Emblem verse created life when it didn't exist before as a fundamental concept. Maybe Ashunera didn't do that too, say if she physically gave birth to all the trees and stuff hence she's not actually a life form on a different divinity level or if she created them by arranging molecules in organic compound arrays, but the game obviously (and shouldn't) go into that level of detail.

Ultimately what we're left with is the original question. What makes Ashunera more of a God than Naga.

The Answer, Ashunera created life. Not just a life form or group of life forms, but all life in existence in Tellius. How exactly she did it? Unknown. Maybe it was Ex Nilho, maybe it was Asexual Reproduction. Maybe she lied and Anna created all life. We don't know for Ashunera's case. What we do know is that Naga can't create Ex Nilho and by her own metric that means she's not a god.

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10 hours ago, Stroud said:

So I guess Deirdre will have a possible chance to be among the mythic heroes? If not one from her Family tree? 

No, she was a mere mortal with a unfortunate story. The dragons and the original 12 Crusaders could be though. Bishop Galle as the big bad.

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2 hours ago, Jotari said:

On an unrelated note that website has just revealed to me that Chrom's Japanese name is Chromium which I find simultaneously hilarious, silly and cool.

Chrom's name in Japanese is and has always been "Chrom".

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As far as I can tell, no one has suggested Tiki as a potential Mythic Hero, so I shall be the first! This would be particularly apropos in reference to the Future Past DLC.

Besides, she needs this to maintain the symmetry of alts she has with her younger self! There's a regular adult and young Tiki, there's summer versions of each... and, since there's a Legendary version of the younger one, having an adult Mythic would return balance and order to the world!

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44 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Chrom's name in Japanese is and has always been "Chrom".

Oh, well that's disappointing. Guess it was just the way it was being rendered through googles auto translante. Now that you do mention it I can recall in my head Japanese voice clips of people saying Kromu.

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