[DATAMINE] Special Heroes Arrive! Greil's Devoted!

[Sentinel07]

11 hours ago, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

For some reason this banner doesn't want to give me red stones.... but I did get a Mist and a Reyson out of about 50 orbs so there's that. I've got a month to save to try for Ike again.
 

I will trade you Mist for one of your Greils xD

I think this banner more than anything else made me wish trading was a thing. :D

I finally got Mist, but only after getting 8 Griel's. I'm not sure whether to call that lucky or insane.

[Alastor15243]

2 minutes ago, Sentinel07 said:

I think this banner more than anything else made me wish trading was a thing. :D

I finally got Mist, but only after getting 8 Griel's. I'm not sure whether to call that lucky or insane.

Oh yeah I really wish we could trade. I’d love to use my unwanted 5 stars to get the ones I want, and also I’d love to give my friend a hand when I get something I don’t want but he does.

[omegaxis1]

4 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

No. That’s not skill, that’s strength and agility. Skill is knowledge and the practice it takes to perform a task.

You have to understand the right context the term skill is used under. Because Ike has had Greil's teachings from day 1 and has been applying it the entire time in both PoR and RD. Ike mastering Greil's sword technique, but still apparently coming up short to not be his father's equal. So what exactly is missing that Ike attains only from the blessing that allows him to finally reach Greil's level? It was just the strength and agility, which combined with the techniques from Greil's swordstyle, made it so that Ike's skills can finally reach Greil's level.

You honestly cannot write off the blessing as something pointless, since the entire point of the blessings is that they are supposed to be serious business, as even minor blessings can have major power behind them, and it's doubtful that Yune gave Ike anything minor. 

4 minutes ago, Sentinel07 said:

I think this banner more than anything else made me wish trading was a thing. :D

I finally got Mist, but only after getting 8 Griel's. I'm not sure whether to call that lucky or insane.

You have no idea how much I wished trading was a thing. Been hoping for that ever since I learned how the +10 thing worked.

[Baldrick]

4 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

What you guys are talking about sword skill, you are actually referring to sword techniques, the more appropriate term for this.

That's what Zelgius is talking about when he says he wants to surpass Greil.

Note that after Ike defeats Zelgius, he asks if Zelgius thought he was as skilful as Greil. If it was a matter of power, Ike proved he was stronger by killing Zelgius.

[Interdimensional Observer]

1 minute ago, Sentinel07 said:

I finally got Mist, but only after getting 8 Griel's. I'm not sure whether to call that lucky or insane.

That is crazier than my back to back freebie Hector-Myrrh from today and yesterday (now I hope Micaiah has the same luck for me in two days). That is enough Greils to for everyone character who'd want one of him to themselves. One for Caineghis, one for Ike, one for Mist, one for Titania, one for Blackie, one for Tauroneo, and still two extra in case Blackie accidentally pokes one.

Were you looking for Ike at all? Because maybe Greil wanted him to stay back.

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Baldrick said:

That's what Zelgius is talking about when he says he wants to surpass Greil.

Note that after Ike defeats Zelgius, he asks if Zelgius thought he was as skilful as Greil. If it was a matter of power, Ike proved he was stronger by killing Zelgius.

Except Ike's always had Greil's swordskills. He has already mastered the techniques of Greil's swordplay. So what made the difference to truly reach Greil's level? What did Yune's blessing give him to close that gap? The strength and speed to enhance the techniques overall. That's what finally closed the gap.

[thecrimsonflash]

1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

In some way, yes, Ike COULD have grown to become like he was. It reminds me of this case in My Hero Academia, where Class A, where they grow through chaotic situations and adapt to it to get stronger, went against Class B, who trained diligently through the normal method and grew stronger as a result. 

Going about how RD has the case of chaos vs order, Ike could have attained the strength he got through an orderly training method from his father. What he got was the more chaotic way of becoming stronger though.

it assumes that greil had much else to teach Ike, Ike had been training exclusively under greil for 19 years prior to PoR, greil not being around forced Ike on the front lines giving Ike real experience where it is clear that he grew far more during actual combat than he did getting the tar beaten out of him by his dad, repetition is not skill, there is a stark contrast to knowledge and experience it is one thing to know a technique but to really use it in the heat of the moment is very different.

1 hour ago, Alastor15243 said:

That’s more an issue of timing and circumstance. Forcing Ike into a leadership position just in time for history-making events to happen. Not an issue of his father holding him back and keeping him soft. The idea that Ike wouldn’t have turned out amazing if he hadn’t lost his father, or worse, the implication Greil made that if he got his father back he’d lose all the badassery he gained, is too horrible for words.

people grow the most during hardships, it isn't Ike needing greil dead, it's suddenly having to lead the greil mercenaries then having them fall apart due to his own lack of experience(yes it is only shinon and gatrie but it is intended to have a real impact to Ike, they were the best of the group after all), it is hunting down the black knight for vengeance in direct defiance of his father's final will, it is nearly dying by getting overwhelmed by daien forces, it is making his first real choice deciding to escort elincia to begnion, it is nearly getting killed by picking a fight with goldoans because he was in a hopeless situation.

the point is that if it were greil holding he reigns Ike would have not had the opportunity to grow near as much as he had, at the start of PoR he is a stupid kid who hasn't even heard of a laguz by the end he was leading an army to liberate crimea, no amount of getting the crap beaten out of him by a man using his bad hand, would be capable of replacing the experience he gained as a result of greil's death, there is an enormous contrast to actually being a driver versus being an observer.

edit: I totally forgot that this was about a banner, I am happy that I can now focus on getting mist after pulling another myrrge, I hope it goes well, my luck has been pretty good lately(cept when it sucks and I get a kana instead), but mist has always been a sour one for me, it took me over a year to pull the original.

Edited February 9, 2019 by thecrimsonflash

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, thecrimsonflash said:

it assumes that greil had much else to teach Ike, Ike had been training exclusively under greil for 19 years prior to PoR, greil not being around forced Ike on the front lines giving Ike real experience where it is clear that he grew far more during actual combat than he did getting the tar beaten out of him by his dad, repetition is not skill, there is a stark contrast to knowledge and experience it is one thing to know a technique but to really use it in the heat of the moment is very different.

4

But at the same time, the training through normal pacing allows one to be ready for the dangers ahead, so that the experience they gain from that will only make them even stronger. It's why they train to begin with. Marth and Alm both trained as they had, which allowed them to combat others and overcome adversaries. Also, the entire chaotic nature of being forced into the frontlines is definitely a quick way to get stronger faster, but it's also a way to just as easily, if not more likely, crash and burn. If anything, Ike is lucky to have been able to handle it. 

Greil being alive could have helped Ike grow properly and still grown to be a strong warrior if only take more time. But for the sake of the narrative drama, and the need to give characters a more fast paced power growth excuse, they make the chaotic nature take shape. 

[Baldrick]

17 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

So what made the difference to truly reach Greil's level? What did Yune's blessing give him to close that gap? The strength and speed to enhance the techniques overall. That's what finally closed the gap.

Not according to Ike. Zelgius doesn't dispute it, either.

Zelgius:
“You are stronger. Much stronger than before…”

Ike:
“I have you to thank for that. I grew stronger through our previous fight.”

Zelgius:
“Ha… So you stole my swordsmanship?”

Edited February 9, 2019 by Baldrick

[Sentinel07]

17 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

That is crazier than my back to back freebie Hector-Myrrh from today and yesterday (now I hope Micaiah has the same luck for me in two days). That is enough Greils to for everyone character who'd want one of him to themselves. One for Caineghis, one for Ike, one for Mist, one for Titania, one for Blackie, one for Tauroneo, and still two extra in case Blackie accidentally pokes one.

Were you looking for Ike at all? Because maybe Greil wanted him to stay back.

I got Ike twice. :D

So yeah 8 Greil's and 2 Ike's before Mist finally came around.

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Baldrick said:

Not according to Ike.

Zelgius:
“You are stronger. Much stronger than before…”

Ike:
“I have you to thank for that. I grew stronger through our previous fight.”

Zelgius:
“Ha… So you stole my swordsmanship?”

Wait, this was one in the original. I don't recall Zelgius saying that. Or is this the extended script?

[Baldrick]

4 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Or is this the extended script?

Yeah. The regular (i.e. the abridged) script omits Zelgius' second line.

Edited February 9, 2019 by Baldrick

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Baldrick said:

Yeah. The regular (i.e. the abridged) script omits Zelgius' second line.

I see. I honestly never got the case on why there are two different scripts at all. How does one unlock them?

Now then, let's take this moment to say that Ike grew stronger as that. What was Yune's blessing then? Are we to take that Yune's blessing to Ike was just for show? That the blessing of a goddess did not give Ike that any power at all? Or was it truly so minor of a blessing? 

Once again, I reiterate that Part 4 of RD is the worst written part of the RD story.

[Alastor15243]

4 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

I see. I honestly never got the case on why there are two different scripts at all. How does one unlock them?

Now then, let's take this moment to say that Ike grew stronger as that. What was Yune's blessing then? Are we to take that Yune's blessing to Ike was just for show? That the blessing of a goddess did not give Ike that any power at all? Or was it truly so minor of a blessing? 

Once again, I reiterate that Part 4 of RD is the worst written part of the RD story.

There's never been any real story explanation of what promotion items even do. The stories almost never discuss their effects or the limitations they let people surpass, so that has always been an extremely weird subject to look too hard at. So the story-integrated promotions are always going to be among the weaker parts of a story.

Edited February 9, 2019 by Alastor15243

[bottlegnomes]

36 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Except Ike's always had Greil's swordskills. He has already mastered the techniques of Greil's swordplay.

One little nitpick here. There's a difference between a brute performance increase and a refinement that results in performance increase. It's the difference between Ike lifts weights so his swings hit harder because more muscle is propelling the blow and figuring out (consciously or through intuition) that if he holds the sword such a way it generates more force with the same amount of brute strength. Even if Ike mastered all the motions, there's still refinements to be made, which it's heavily implied he did thanks to Zelgius's influence.

Edited February 9, 2019 by bottlegnomes

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Alastor15243 said:

There's never been any real story explanation of what promotion items even do. The stories almost never discuss their effects or the limitations they let people surpass, so that has always been an extremely weird subject to look too hard at. So the story-integrated promotions are always going to be among the weaker parts of a story.

There's a firm difference in these promotions though. You are regarding the promotional items, but the case of Ike in RD is that this promotion happens by the blessing of a goddess. Blessings in the Tellius series is supposed to be a big deal. It's power granted by a god. 

So if Yune claims that her blessing Micaiah will let her be very powerful enough to handle most of the fighting, blessing Sothe to be able to much better protect Micaiah, and then blessing Ike as well, all these things are to indicate that they are meant to be much stronger. Can one really claim that those things are truly things to just wave off? These aren't normal promotions.

Hell, even in the older games, particularly the GBA games, story based promotions were a result of acquiring the power legendary weapons, which are supposed to be incredibly powerful and such. Hector even comments that taking Armads made him feel like he acquired incredible powers, power that remained inside him despite sealing Armads again.

4 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said:

One little nitpick here. There's a difference between a brute performance increase and a refinement that results in performance increase. It's the difference between Ike lifts weights so his swings hit harder because more muscle is propelling the blow and figuring out (consciously or through intuition) that if he holds the sword such a way it generates more force with the same amount of brute strength. Even if Ike mastered all the motions, there's still refinements to be made, which it's heavily implied Ike did thanks to Zelgius's influence.

Well, Ike doesn't just do the motions. He has been training and honing his skills for several years now. Though I can agree that Ike practiced much more after their combat in Part 3. 

[Ice Dragon]

14 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

I see. I honestly never got the case on why there are two different scripts at all. How does one unlock them?

Replay value and rewarding players for playing on higher difficulties.

As for unlocking them, the main site has that question covered. They don't exist in the English version, and the Japanese version uses them when you play on Hard or Maniac difficulty.

[Baldrick]

4 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

I see. I honestly never got the case on why there are two different scripts at all. How does one unlock them?

The Japanese version has two scripts, the one we got was a simplified version for Easy Mode. I don't know if the extended script is actually in the English version.

4 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Now then, let's take this moment to say that Ike grew stronger as that. What was Yune's blessing then? Are we to take that Yune's blessing to Ike was just for show? That the blessing of a goddess did not give Ike that any power at all? Or was it truly so minor of a blessing? 

I guess in story terms, it's like a charge-up? It seems to be a different thing to her actual blessing, that she does before you fight Dheginsea.

[omegaxis1]

3 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

I guess in story terms, it's like a charge-up? It seems to be a different thing to her actual blessing, that she does before you fight Dheginsea.

The blessings to fight Dheginsea and beyond is to allow them to pierce through Mantle, basically what the Black Knight and Ashnard were in the previous game. The one used to promote Ike, Sothe, and Micaiah seemed to make someone stronger overall. 

[Interdimensional Observer]

16 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Replay value and rewarding players for playing on higher difficulties.

As for unlocking them, the main site has that question covered. They don't exist in the English version, and the Japanese version uses them when you play on Hard or Maniac difficulty.

Actually I think I heard the reasoning stated in an interview is that they thought people who played on lower difficulties didn't want to deal with so much story. Although apparently the "Extended" script is actually shorter in the beginning compared to Hard/Maniac Modes in Japan.

Whatever the reasoning was, it seems a bit weird. Since nowadays, easy and real easy modes exist partly with the intention of allowing someone to just enjoy the story in many games.

Edited February 9, 2019 by Interdimensional Observer

[bottlegnomes]

4 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Well, Ike doesn't just do the motions. He has been training and honing his skills for several years now. Though I can agree that Ike practiced much more after their combat in Part 3. 

That's over-simplifying things a bit. It's basically like saying a college basketball player won't improve drastically because they've been seriously training and performing in do-or-die situations for probably about a decade. If they get to the pros, they're up against far, far better opponents, so they either need to adapt or fail, they dedicate even more time to honing their craft, and hopefully having better instruction.

Paralleling that situation to Ike, he had natural talent that was honed by his father, but the training was cut short leaving the skills very rough. Those skills were sharpened during the Crimea-Daein war, but Ike probably didn't have much time for reflective training where he could actively analyze his own flaws and work to mitigate them. It was the fastest fix to cover his own ass. He also wasn't facing the strongest opponents; Daein is stated to have a good military, but inferior to Begnion's. Let's say they're high school. Then, during the peacetime, Ike had lots of time for that reflective training, but was facing probably pretty mediocre opponents aside from training with the GMs. This is a time for fixing flaws in his style, but not adapting it for new challenges. This is let's say the summer between high school and college. During the war with Begnion, Ike gets to apply those skills against stronger opponents. This brings out any flaws he might not have noticed and puts him up against things he hadn't anticipated. Let's equate this to college. Finally, Ike goes up against the Disciples of Order, who are IIRC largely the elite of Begnion in addition to having Ashera's blessing. Plus he's had Zelgius straight up call out that he's lacking, which would no doubt make him double down on the training and pay more attention to finding all the areas he's lacking. Let's equate this to the pros. Heck, we can toss in Yune as a sort of analog to the better instruction, say strength training, in a sense.

Not saying this is necessarily how things would play out, but if we do follow a similar trajectory to the athlete, there would be relative plateaus followed by sharp increases as Ike/the athlete hones their skills to overcome the new challenges.

[Integrity]

i'm just responding publicly to anonymous reports here: there is a difference between people getting lowkey and highkey homophobic about whether does ike is gay, and people talking about greil's sword prowess versus ike's sword prowess. we're not gonna step in to stop the latter. cheers.