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Which units do you love as a character but wish were better units?


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As a counterpoint to the other thread (units who you hate as a character but love as a unit), the goal here is the opposite. Who do you really love as a character, despite their being underpowered as a unit. Why do you love them and why do they fail at life? How do you wish they could be improved?

 

Path of Radiance/Radiant Dawn:

Bastian:

My favorite character in the franchise (due to his design and witty, flowery personality) is also one of the worst units in not one, but two of its games. Low availability, bad stats for his level, few support options, and locked to daggers instead of staves. 

I would improve his availability in both games. In PoR, I would lock him in prison with Kieran, Brom, and Nephenee. He could be an early pre-premote, but with staves instead of daggers. In RD, I would have him be one of Elincia's units from the start. 

I would also give him more support options. A personality like his should have as many interactions as possible.

 

Nasir:

Cool design, great story arch, and a non-child dragon to boot. He's also a terrible unit with low availability. I would improve availability to have his first mission be the ship level. I would also increase support options and buff his bases/growths to be useful.

In RD, I would have him be one of Ike's Greil Mercenaries in all GM chapters.

 

Pelleas:

Keep his additional playthrough exclusivity, but make him available as soon as he joins the story.

 

Astrid:

In RD, give her better bases and growth rates. And delete her relationship with Makalov.

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@Etheus Lol, didn't had to wait too long for this one. =) This is a tough one, as I like to train my characters and make them into good ones.

I think Blazing Sword has a few characters that are interesting and have a good story for them, but in most playthrough they are not that good. Nino and Karla are obvious, but Rebecca can also join them sometimes.

You know what, Wendy is also an interesting as a female armor knight(rarity), but oh boy she's painful to train.

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poor mist was never all that great, if she was like she is in RD in PoR, I think she would have had a unique niche if she was a sword/staff user from the start, then we have japanese radiant dawn, she can not class change prior to part 4 chapter 3 which just kills all viability and even in the localization where an oversight let her class change by going over level 20 (yes this is an oversight, given the context of the holy crown it seems that you are not supposed to have a valkyrie prior to the holy crown), her stat spread is too awkward to work with at times, she would have been fine with a better strength growth and she also could have had a better cap, she is only salvageable because florete borders on broken, magic damage or no.

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2 hours ago, Slumber said:

Dorcas, unironically.

Yeah, Dorcas isn't actually a bad character. Fairly simple, a humble man devoted to his wife, seeking little else in life, but likable. Not necessarily smart, but no dumb brute either. Outside of Vaida, they also did a pretty good pick of support partners for him.

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Valbar. It's refreshing to see someone with the "avenged dead family" cliche actually move on after the event, and it's heartwarming knowing that Valbar still has happy memories of the time spent with them. Even if they don't get as much screen time as I'd like, I do enjoy his interactions with Leon and Kamui, as well as his base conversations.

However, despite being perhaps the best knight in the game, the low movement of the class really hampers Valbar's potential on Celica's route, where the poor guy will rarely see any action due to the environment heavy maps and the lack of warp. It's a shame, too, because he could fulfill a niche that Celica's side could really use, but can't because of the level design. And if you decide to use the villagers fork on Valbar, then congratulations! Even on the hard difficulty, you pretty much snapped a good chunk of the challenge on Celicas side in half. Sure, he won't double as much as your other mercenaries, but that's not much of a problem when he hits hard without fancy weaponry and can pretty much tank every physical attack the game throws at you. He'll also go down quick if a magic using enemy so much as sneezes in his direction, but if you play prudently that doesn't need to be an issue. It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation if you decide whether or not to give Valbar the villager fork or keep him as a knight.

 

As a runner-up, I'd say Laurent. I love noticing the subtle differences between him and his mother, and I also enjoy his character in general. However, while I would not call him bad per se, Laurent is redundant as heck in Awakening. He's an overpowered mage in a game already filled with stellar magic units, so even if he turns into a magical nuke with the right pairings, there will still be someone else at that point in the game that could fit his role without an issue. I do still love using Laurent in combat, but I can't help but think that I could switch him out with someone else and not much would change. He does have the advantage of being able support with much of the second generation cast, but even the usefulness of that can range between playthroughs.

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I would definitely agree with the OP's pick of Bastian, for all that he's not that bad in RD. Definitely agree that he needed staves in RD; Calill already has the "trades staves for high bases" mage niche, and Bastian's bases are arguably worse despite joining later anyway. I suppose they didn't want him to crowd out Elincia as the lategame staff-user.

Ranulf is pretty terrible in PoR, though thankfully he's better in RD. In PoR he suffers from the same thing all the laguz suffer from late; an awful weapon which can't keep up with the shinies the beorc are getting like forged silver. And unlike his fellow Gallians he doesn't join before that part of the game is kicking in.

I really like Henry and he's... not precisely bad as a PC but he is problematic due to his bad speed. His niche is generally better filled by Tharja plus anyone else you have reclassed to dark mage, such as Robin.

Arthur is a large ham and I love me some ham. Sadly his terrible crit-avoid makes him a worse choice than most other Conquest units with similar stat builds (though he can pull some okay work before other options join), then on Revelation he's just trash.


Interestingly most of the characters I could name for this are male, I feel like there isn't much overlap between the bad female units and the ones I like as characters. The biggest exception I can think of is Sanaki; she's not a favourite but I do quite like her, and she's obviously a bad PC.

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7 hours ago, Hekselka said:

Sanaki, she joins very late which already is already a negative but she's also too slow and can't hit hard enough to kill enemies when she joins.

Considering that her personal tome pretty much beats non-mages to within an inch of their lives, I'd say the part of "can't hit hard enough to kill enemies" is kinda false. Sure, she won't one-shot anyone, but she can combine with pretty much anyone for kills. That gotta count for something, if you ask me.

1 hour ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Ranulf is pretty terrible in PoR, though thankfully he's better in RD. In PoR he suffers from the same thing all the laguz suffer from late; an awful weapon which can't keep up with the shinies the beorc are getting like forged silver. And unlike his fellow Gallians he doesn't join before that part of the game is kicking in.

I really like Henry and he's... not precisely bad as a PC but he is problematic due to his bad speed. His niche is generally better filled by Tharja plus anyone else you have reclassed to dark mage, such as Robin.

IMO, the part where he's better in RD is canceled out by the fact that laguz in general are worse off in RD. Doesn't help that they have to lose player phases regularly to stay relevant, and Ranulf's even worse off due to being in the worst laguz class. That being said, there are some good non-royal laguz (the hawks come to mind, as does Skrimir), but generally you're better off just using beorc, since with the exception of the ones I mentioned, laguz don't really bring enough to the table to warrant dealing with their weaknesses.

I dunno - I'd rather deal with his bad speed than Tharja's inability to hit the broad side of a barn, or her awful crit evade. Henry at least has the skill to hit with the dark tomes, which I can't trust Tharja to do, like, ever.

Anyway... For units that come to mind, I'd say Odin, Arthur and Niles, easily. The former two are hammy, which I like, but Odin is rather hit-or-miss, which I don't really see as appealing in a game as unforgiving as Conquest, while Arthur's just unreliable since his terrible crit evade makes him an iffy choice at best, especially on Conquest (being vulnerable to critical hits is even more damning a weakness than being weak to Stealth Rock - and any Pokemon players here should know how big a deal that is). Niles's struggles to live day-to-day are riveting, but he doesn't really have much else going for him besides great speed (granted, speed is one of the most important stats to have, but good speed alone does not a good unit make).

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This list is miles long, but I'll narrow it down to only a few.
*Some of these are not BAD units by any means, but I do wish they were BETTER.

Blazing Blade:

Wil: Archers in this game aren't generally considered very good. Wil is the one I think I'd most like to see grow as a unit, as Rebecca is used anyway due to some popularity and Louise is already good.

Heath: While not bad, it takes a bit of doing to get him up to par with other flyers already recruited.

Isadora: Same as Heath, except with horse units.

Sacred Stones:

L'Arachel: Any unit can be good thanks to the grinding capabilities, but L'Arachel is one I find having to be babysat a lot.

Dozla: He's so endearing but he's considered so lackluster as a unit.

Tellius:

Brom: While not considered bad, he does have competition with other knights; most notably Gatrie. It'd be super awesome if the objectively best Tellius character was also objectively the best knight unit.

Marth-land:

Maria: Why use any other healer when you have Lena? Well, for whatever reason, Maria was one of the first characters in Marth's games I decided I liked. It's unfortunate she's not up to par.

Echoes:

Tobin: I've heard he isn't considered very good, so how about changing that?

Forsyth: His mobility and some bad terrain hurt his class so much.

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37 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

IMO, the part where he's better in RD is canceled out by the fact that laguz in general are worse off in RD.

I dunno if I agree; the laguz I think are better in PoR are Mordecai, Lethe, and probably Muarim, and only because they join overlevelled in PoR. Ranulf, Janaff, and Ulki are all clearly better in RD. So are Nasir and Ena, though that's due their stat-buffing auras. Regarding Ranulf in particular... PoR Ranulf is thoroughly outclassed by almost anyone at his join time. He struggles to 2HKO and struggles to double, especially if equipped with a Demi Band (and without that, PoR laguz are even worse off than RD cats, spending about half the battle as wastes of space outside of being able to shove). RD Ranulf at least has boss stats when he joins, even if he has to huff grass every 2-3 turns depending on how much combat he's seeing.

 

Tharja gets two innate skills to help with her accuracy, and having allies near/paired up with you in Awakening easily gives you 10-15 more hit on top of that. Her skill is low enough to give her problems with Waste, sure, but she can hit reliably with Nosferatu, and that's what makes dark mages so powerful in Awakening. I've had Tharja devour large parts of maps on Lunatic and I'm not alone; Henry has considerably more trouble doing this.

Edited by Dark Holy Elf
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6 hours ago, Dandy Druid said:

Volug.

Volug is amazing when he is around in the Dawn Brigade, the most useful non royal Laguz (aside of the Herons) in the game.

 

FE4: Arden

FE6: Wolt, Sophia, Gonzales (too many actually)

FE7: Dorcas

FE8: L'Arachel (joins way too low level as someone whose experience gain in incredibly slow for being only a healer)

FE10: Fiona, Leonardo, Tormod (same as FE6)

Edited by Necrofantasia
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24 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I dunno if I agree; the laguz I think are better in PoR are Mordecai, Lethe, and probably Muarim, and only because they join overlevelled in PoR. Ranulf, Janaff, and Ulki are all clearly better in RD. So are Nasir and Ena, though that's due their stat-buffing auras. Regarding Ranulf in particular... PoR Ranulf is thoroughly outclassed by almost anyone at his join time. He struggles to 2HKO and struggles to double, especially if equipped with a Demi Band (and without that, PoR laguz are even worse off than RD cats, spending about half the battle as wastes of space outside of being able to shove). RD Ranulf at least has boss stats when he joins, even if he has to huff grass every 2-3 turns depending on how much combat he's seeing.

 

Tharja gets two innate skills to help with her accuracy, and having allies near/paired up with you in Awakening easily gives you 10-15 more hit on top of that. Her skill is low enough to give her problems with Waste, sure, but she can hit reliably with Nosferatu, and that's what makes dark mages so powerful in Awakening. I've had Tharja devour large parts of maps on Lunatic and I'm not alone; Henry has considerably more trouble doing this.

I won't contest that Ranulf's outclassed in PoR, but I considier the plight laguz have to go through in RD not much better, especially since they're rather slow to improve relative to beorc. In addition, they might as well have an innate Provoke as far as ranged enemies are concerned (to be fair, this is also true in PoR, but with RD enemies actually being threatening combined with laguz being really brittle untransformed... yeah).

True, but I generally don't get much use out of Hex because at the end of the day, she is a mage, and thus doesn't really want to face direct attacks. Which leaves Anathema as all she can rely on, and it alone oft isn't enough of a swing to make her accurate with the likes of Mire and Ruin (more so the former, since short of having someone else with the dark mage skills close to the target, you're most likely not going to benefit from them when using Mire); Waste has nothing to do with it. Long story short, I find it hard to justify giving Tharja a slot on the team when she's unreliable compared to my other mage options (at least unless she's using fire or wind magic).

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1 hour ago, Necrofantasia said:

Volug is amazing when he is around in the Dawn Brigade, the most useful non royal Laguz (aside of the Herons) in the game.

Volug is good for Part 1 but begins to fall off Part 3. He is useful for the early game, but I wish he was able to retain it for the late game.

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3 hours ago, Necrofantasia said:

FE6: Wolt, Sophia, Gonzales (too many actually)

Really? He didn't feel like a bad unit to me, he can hit pretty haaaard. Added Hard Mode bonuses, he became a monster of his own.

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Volug is still really useful against the Laguz in pt.3 though. Fully transformed, he hits a bunch of valuable benchmarks.

2 minutes ago, Garlyle said:

Really? He didn't feel like a bad unit to me, he can hit pretty haaaard. Added Hard Mode bonuses, he became a monster of his own.

I agree with that - in the lategame, you see a lot of lance-wielding enemies, and Gonzo is basically as accurate as Allen against those. He's a bit too specialized to be a high-tier unit since he has problems hitting anything but lance users (and his mobility combined with super high con means that he can't keep up with your mounted units), but his bulk, power, and crit rate (which also helps with his low accuracy since it can compensate for a miss if he doubles) still make him a very decent unit.

--

Treck - I love my stoner cav, but as a unit, he's just so painfully average. Having a horse saves him from being bad, but it's still hard to justify giving him Knight Crest over Allen and Lance.

Geese - Cool dude, cool design, the only pirate in the game, very meh stats, 100% outclassed by HM!Gonzales.

L'Arachel - funniest character in FE, period. Also a late-joining low-level healer in a game where leveling up your staffers is way too slow, anyway.

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9 minutes ago, Garlyle said:

Really? He didn't feel like a bad unit to me, he can hit pretty haaaard. Added Hard Mode bonuses, he became a monster of his own.

He has non-existant skill in a game where axes are insanely inaccurate. 

More than anyone, he has to rely on his crits to do damage, which isn't always a good game plan. It makes him a sketchy enemy phase unit. 

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9 minutes ago, Slumber said:

More than anyone, he has to rely on his crits to do damage, which isn't always a good game plan.

What do you mean by that? If you took his crit away, Gonzo would still be a super strong, decently fast unit. The added bonus of his 30 crit is that it makes killing enemies that he doubles and 2HKOs a bit more reliable because it might make up for a miss.

(also a little reminder that Lv. 13/1 Gonzales has basically the same innate hit as 15/5 Allen. Against lance users, Gonzales is really good once he promotes - his problem is his lack of options against other weapon types)

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3 hours ago, Garlyle said:

Really? He didn't feel like a bad unit to me, he can hit pretty haaaard. Added Hard Mode bonuses, he became a monster of his own.

His bases are monstrous for his base level, but he is the biggest victim of FE6's weapon "balance" . His damage output is worthless when he cannot hit things which is the case. 

 

Chapter 21 does not matter because sword units still have hit vantage against lances. Technically axes do not exist in FE6 for me except for Lot in early game and Dieck with hand axes. 

 

Speaking of Gonzales he is boss in the redux patch, always ended up my MVP. 

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11 minutes ago, Necrofantasia said:

Chapter 21 does not matter because sword units still have hit vantage against lances.

They don't. Against lances, an Iron Axe has identical hit and +5 might compared to an Iron sword.
Iron Axe vs. Steel Sword has +15 hit and +2 damage.
Hand Axe vs. Steel Sword has identical hit and +1 damage.
Killer Axe vs. Killing Edge has +5 hit and +4 damage.
Silver Axe vs. Silver Sword has identical hit and +4 damage.

The problem with axes is that they are very specialized - they are however almost always the best choice against lance users ("almost" because effective weaponry does not follow that rule), which is why they're excellent to have as a secondary/tertiary weapon type for Heroes and Palas.

Of course, axelock is still a problem for any unit that suffers from it, including Gonzales. But his problem is not that there weren't any situations in which he can shine - again, when Gonzo is good, he is very good - it's his lack of consistency. In particular, he can't reliably collect XP on his two Isles chapters because Lance enemies are sparse, so getting him to promotion can be a bit of a pain. But after promotion, his combat is really, really good since the endgame is quite lance-heavy. He still has his movement to worry about if you're playing fast -  6 move is okay, of course, but iirc, Gonzo is too fat for your horses to carry around.

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16 hours ago, Etheus said:

Astrid:

In RD, give her better bases and growth rates. And delete her relationship with Makalov.

I would say don't get rid of it; just make it a lot better written and maybe include some character development on Makalov's part. 

Here's my list:

Edward:

Once he gets a few levels, he becomes a beast; often even better than Zihark and Mia at the same level. I enjoy watching him dodge every enemy attack and proceed to obliterate them. The problem: it can be difficult to get him those levels that he needs before he becomes good.
 

Mia (Path of Radiance):

In my experience, Mia starts off rather weak when you first get her. After some levels of growth, she becomes almost as good as Zihark. But then, starting around a couple levels after becoming swordmaster, she falls off. The problem is lack of strength: even with a silver sword, she'll double-attack almost everything but never actually one-round-KO enemies. 
 

Rhys (Path of Radiance):

In Path of Radiance, Rhys is the only character in your team who can use light magic. His magic stat is great, and his speed often actually pretty good. The problem is the fact that he has 0 strength and his strength growth is almost nothing. While it fits him being frail and prone to illness, it means that every tome except light will weigh him down immensely and reduce his speed. I don't think the solution is to increase his strength growth; I think the solution would've been to reduce the weight of light tomes. 

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Just about any non royal Laguz in RD. Their transformation gague being nerfed made them a hassle to use without there being an additional advantage to compensate for  that weakness.  

Also Tormod. Not that he's bad as far as stats and growths go but he's only there for 5 of the chapters. 

Edited by Etrurian emperor
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