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On the Church of Seiros and it being good/evil


Corrobin
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I'm placing my bet on there being different 'sects' of it, and one is bad but the other is good. Like, maybe the church's knights are good, but the priests are bad, or there's a sect that's more Old Testament and "Seiros is wrathful" that's bad and a more New Testament "love and acceptance" sect that's good.

Alternatively, there's a small group of bad people at the top, but most of the people below them are well-intentioned if unaware of their leader's evil.

What theories do you have for this?

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We do see there's Western Church soldiers at one point, if that means anything. They're even designated on the map. So maybe there are competing factions in the Church.

I'm still hoping that the Church isn't purely a cover and puppet of some evil god/dragon, but something a bit more nuanced and complex on purely the human level. It would be great to just have a mix of zealous, misguided and greedy people that are behind the inevitable wrong doings or major conflict and not some world threatening supernatural aspect. Heck just the Church actually being good intentioned and just really bad and misguided at their job of maintaining peace between the three kindgoms would be refreshing. They trying to be good and keep the balance and peace, but how they go about it is really messed up, counter productive and abhorrent. 

But we've got a mysterious Manakete who only we see, we also have some mysterious precog/turnwheel esque powers and we've seen supernatural beast and stuff in the trailers, so odds are there will be a supernatural element behind it all or greatly influencing things, but I'm still hoping it's a bit more original and complex than that.

Edited by Enduin
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3 minutes ago, Enduin said:

I'm still hoping that the Church isn't purely a cover and puppet of some evil god/dragon, but something a bit more nuanced and complex on purely the human level. It would be great to just have a mix of zealous, misguided and greedy people that are behind the inevitable wrong doings or major conflict and not some world threatening supernatural aspect. Heck just the Church actually being good intentioned and just really bad and misguided at their job of maintaining peace between the three kindgoms would be refreshing. They trying to be good and keep the balance and peace, but how they go about it is really messed up, counter productive and abhorrent. 

Yes! I am so tired of the JRPG trope of the evil church. It's overused and very predictable. Religion on a whole isn't evil. It's the people who run it that could be bad news. Because people are inherently flawed. I'd like to see at least two factions.

Edited by PrincessAlyson
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6 minutes ago, PrincessAlyson said:

Yes! I am so tired of the JRPG trope of the evil church. It's overused and very predictable. Religion on whole isn't evil. It's the people who run it that could be bad news. Because people are inherently flawed. I'd like to see at least two factions.

For real. Like I totally want the Priestess to be evil, cause that's obvious fun and would be great to see her "turn." But just like a crazy religious zealot evil who thinks she's knows what's best for everyone and has the will of the Goddess behind her(but she really doesn't) and not I'm possessed or actually in league with a clearly evil dragon god in my basement kind of evil.

And yeah her militancy and zealotry might even have a faint amount of justification due to potential all out war among the 3 nations, or because of some other less than honorable faction trying to sow dissent or gain power. People do bad and evil things all the time thinking they're the good guys.

Edited by Enduin
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The Pope/High Priestess woman definitely looks suspicious. But maybe she's actually a good guy and it's her council/advisors that are the issue. That might make a good twist. I just don't want an obvious setup full of predictable cliche tropes. Tropes aren't bad if used right, but... 

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The best way to handle this would be a balanced presentation. 

 

Real world religion provides security and hope to a large percentage of the world's population, but it is also responsible for incalculable death and suffering through wars, purges, crusades, witch hunts, terrorist attacks, inquisitions, and the holding back of social and scientific progress.

 

An accurate portrayal of religion necessitates a great deal of kindness and charity (characters like Lucius are great examples of the ideal), but also a not insignificant amount of corruption, scandal, and violence (the Begnion Senate being the best FE example of this, though they are more of a government entity).

 

In Three Houses, what I want to see is a religious schism that fragments the Church or Seiros into two conflicting factions. One seeking to control/undermine one or more existing governments (perhaps the holy kingdom of Faerghus being an example of one already under control). The other seeking to maintain the peace and prosperity of Fodlan.

 

A happy ending would see the officer's academy end entirely or be separated from the Church of Seiros (because religious indoctrination of students and rulers is a BAD thing), while the benevolent faction of the Church of Seiros scatters around Fodlan, helping to maintain peace and good will between the factions without gaining such overwhelming political influence.

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I agree with most points there. I'd love a faction war that's separating the church into two or more groups. One group can be benevolent while others could be different shades of gray or black. I'd like it if characters in the good faction call out the other faction(s) on their behavior, citing that it's not what their deity stands for/wants. As a religious person myself, I hate it when people commit atrocities in God's name and then say that it was sanctioned/they're right to do so. Hypocrisy is a human thing, but it really burns me to see people act that way. 

Maybe the Goddess can show up Herself and call out/punish the faction that's going too far. Judging by the name, either the Holy Kingdom of Faerghus is good or already fallen to the "bad" faction.

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5 minutes ago, PrincessAlyson said:

I agree with most points there. I'd love a faction war that's separating the church into two or more groups. One group can be benevolent while others could be different shades of gray or black. I'd like it if characters in the good faction call out the other faction(s) on their behavior, citing that it's not what their deity stands for/wants. As a religious person myself, I hate it when people commit atrocities in God's name and then say that it was sanctioned/they're right to do so. Hypocrisy is a human thing, but it really burns me to see people act that way. 

Maybe the Goddess can show up Herself and call out/punish the faction that's going too far. Judging by the name, either the Holy Kingdom of Faerghus is good or already fallen to the "bad" faction.

If the Goddess appears, I'd more appreciate a universal condemnation or exasperation.

 

More of a "guys, I'm not actually a goddess. I'm just a dragon, and I want you all to do the right thing."

 

It's a rare and interesting thing in fiction when you have a religious figure that never actually asked for or wanted worship.

Edited by Etheus
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2 minutes ago, Etheus said:

It's a rare and interesting thing in fiction when you have a religious figure that never actually asked for or wanted worship.

That would be neat to see. "Wait, you worship me as what now? A goddess?" 

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24 minutes ago, Etheus said:

The best way to handle this would be a balanced presentation. 

 

Real world religion provides security and hope to a large percentage of the world's population, but it is also responsible for incalculable death and suffering through wars, purges, crusades, witch hunts, terrorist attacks, inquisitions, and the holding back of social and scientific progress.

 

An accurate portrayal of religion necessitates a great deal of kindness and charity (characters like Lucius are great examples of the ideal), but also a not insignificant amount of corruption, scandal, and violence (the Begnion Senate being the best FE example of this, though they are more of a government entity).

 

In Three Houses, what I want to see is a religious schism that fragments the Church or Seiros into two conflicting factions. One seeking to control/undermine one or more existing governments (perhaps the holy kingdom of Faerghus being an example of one already under control). The other seeking to maintain the peace and prosperity of Fodlan.

 

A happy ending would see the officer's academy end entirely or be separated from the Church of Seiros (because religious indoctrination of students and rulers is a BAD thing), while the benevolent faction of the Church of Seiros scatters around Fodlan, helping to maintain peace and good will between the factions without gaining such overwhelming political influence.

I'm on board with all of this.

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30 minutes ago, PrincessAlyson said:

That would be neat to see. "Wait, you worship me as what now? A goddess?" 

A good example I can think of, albeit this is one in the making and not technically a religious figure, is Anomander Rake, arguably the best and most popular character in Malazan Book of the Fallen.

 

He hasn't achieved what their universe deems as godhood, by choice, but his power rivals that of the gods, he has worshippers among his people (the equivalent of dark elves). In a universe so dark it makes Game of Thrones look like Sesame Street, the morally (slightly) gray and anti-heroic Anomander is just about the most virtuous character in the series.

Edited by Etheus
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Judging by how one of the fights in the trailer was against "Black Beast", there could be monster slaying involved somehow in the plot.

Edited by PrincessAlyson
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This is a JRPG, of course they're evil.

Also, they are of course servants of an evil god, that wants to bind our heroes to the shackles of fate, blah, blah, blah....

 

I HOPE I'm wrong. I hope that we're actually fighting other nations with compelling villains with complex motives, but it does really look like we're just fighting the Grimleal, I mean, Duma Faithful, I mean Ashera, I mean... you get it.

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4 minutes ago, dragonlordsd said:

I HOPE I'm wrong. I hope that we're actually fighting other nations with compelling villains with complex motives, but it does really look like we're just fighting the Grimleal, I mean, Duma Faithful, I mean Ashera, I mean... you get it.

All I want out of this game besides good worldbuilding is a compelling villain who isn't an archetype or expy!

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3 minutes ago, PrincessAlyson said:

All I want out of this game besides good worldbuilding is a compelling villain who isn't an archetype or expy!

Me too!

And not someone who's really old either! Seriously, group of teens versus random old dude is the most common thing ever. Evil teenagers. That's what I want here.

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4 minutes ago, PrincessAlyson said:

All I want out of this game besides good worldbuilding is a compelling villain who isn't an archetype or expy!

Get out of here with your ridiculous expecations! Intelligent Systems is a small, newly established indie studio; they can't deliver on the narrative and make an enjoyable game at the same time!

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7 minutes ago, PrincessAlyson said:

Yes, please. No more old villains. Can we get a complex female villain while we're at it?

Kreia from Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II might scratch that itch. I don't even care about Star Wars and she's just incredible.

My villain expectations for Fire Emblem remain low. At this point I'm just glad people seem to dress somewhat sensibly.

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18 minutes ago, dragonlordsd said:

This is a JRPG, of course they're evil.

Also, they are of course servants of an evil god, that wants to bind our heroes to the shackles of fate, blah, blah, blah....

 

I HOPE I'm wrong. I hope that we're actually fighting other nations with compelling villains with complex motives, but it does really look like we're just fighting the Grimleal, I mean, Duma Faithful, I mean Ashera, I mean... you get it.

People always say that Churches in FE got to be evil because JRPG or whatever, but that's not really the case in most the series?

What about St Elimine's church? Or it's copy in Magvel? Braggi's church that goes against Loptuous? The clergy of Mila AND Duma that isn't part of the Faithful? All the incarnations of Naga's church?

Ashera and Begnion is one thing for sure, but in most FE games we have a benevolent church, alone or together against the evil one. Really, Ashera is the only real "The Church Is All Evil" organization in the FE series and that's only because Yune doesn't have a sect for herself.

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1 hour ago, RexBolt said:

People always say that Churches in FE got to be evil because JRPG or whatever, but that's not really the case in most the series?

What about St Elimine's church? Or it's copy in Magvel? Braggi's church that goes against Loptuous? The clergy of Mila AND Duma that isn't part of the Faithful? All the incarnations of Naga's church?

Ashera and Begnion is one thing for sure, but in most FE games we have a benevolent church, alone or together against the evil one. Really, Ashera is the only real "The Church Is All Evil" organization in the FE series and that's only because Yune doesn't have a sect for herself.

It's debateable whether Ashera can even be called evil. She's clearly an asshole. She imposes an impossible moral standard on all humanity, which they never necessarily agreed to, and is intent on punishing all of them if enough of them fail to meet that standard.

 

But if we call Ashera evil for her judgemental and inhuman perspective, all of those same criticisms apply to most real world deities, especially the Abrahamic God.

 

The moral question is one of philosophy. Does a higher power have the right to impose a standard on its creation, and does that creation have the right to resist that standard? (My personal answers are no and yes, respectively.)

Edited by Etheus
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That facial expression definitely seems evil.  Like "Yes my little puppets, that's it"  

Apparently the church of seiros is a huge influence on the entire continent and wields a tremendous amount of power.  I suspect there will at least be some evil to it, though I hope it is complex and interesting.

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I think it will be split myself. Considering the main force of the school itself are the knights, and we see later in the trailer Edelgard commands a group of knights to attack, we might see the Church of Seiros split in some fashion.

Or it will all be evil. I would rather they do something interesting with the concept than straight up evil church, but if they do a good job with it I wont mind. Berseria managed a decent way of using an evil religious organization while also making it complex and not just cartoonishly evil.

So as long as they do something like that, I would be fine.

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The shadow on that woman's face tells me that she is obviously evil even if the rest of the Church isn't. I have a feeling that even if the Church is good as a whole she is using their influence to do something evil. Hopefully she will have an actually good reason for it other than "humanity is bad". I'm getting tired of that excuse.

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