My Biggest Frustration With This Game

[dragonlordsd]

So, a lot of people have been talking about the issues they feel this game will probably have, whether they don't like the style, don't like the obvious influences from other games, etc. etc.

For me, though, my biggest problem is that I feel like this game is going to waste its ideas.

Of course, I have to add the caveat that like almost everyone else, I know very little about this game. In fact, I'd love to be proven wrong. And possibly, in spite of my complaints, this game may still be really good without giving me what I want. But at the same time, I feel like this game is such a waste of an opportunity.

A lot of people have complained about the game's school setting, and I feel like it's pretty central to the objections people are having about the series' direction. But for me, I think that a game set in a school could be absolutely fascinating. The problem I have is not that this game is set in a school, but rather that from everything we've seen so far, this game seems to be set in a HIGH SCHOOL. Specifically, it seems to be set in a Japanese high school. A very stereotypical Japanese high school. In fact, I would not be surprised if there was some form of "club activities." And possibly even (shudder) a "school festival."

The thing is, this seems to me to be such a missed opportunity, just because of how fascinating a REALISTIC medieval school could be. Education in the middle ages was radically different from modern education. Indeed, it sprung out of a hybrid of monastic life and the mercantile guild system. "Scholastic guilds" had more in common with kung-fu monks than what we think of as schools. Even just browsing wikipedia reveals a ton of interesting facts, like that professors were granted actual papal bulls from Rome certifying their "right" to teach other people (from which we derive diplomas). Students were not obligated to attend classes, but rather would organize themselves based on which teacher they would become a disciple (lit. student) of. A "university" was not a physical place, but a collection of students following a single teacher or ideology or field.

I think a lot could be done with these ideas, but I feel like they really won't be used.

But who knows. Maybe what we get will be better than my ideas. I hope so. But I just think there are cool ways of doing things that are just not being used. What do you guys think?

[Zihark11]

The game has me intrigued  at the moment but i want it to be a certain way and if it isnt to me it will be disappointing.

The best way i think they should do it is you choose what house you wanna teach and only get that house for the entire playthrough so this opens up three playthroughs for everybody where we get to experience new characters every time. 

i do have my worries about the whole Academy system but im hoping its just kinda like your base in Radiant dawn and Fates except its gonna be more in depth this time with the training, skills, and classes.

As a person who hates reclassing (i love identity in characters and reclassing throws it out the window) i wont be using that feature unless its a must in the game. After my Fates im keeping my expectations low but it does look really good and the main character doesnt look lame this time around which is nice.

 

PS: THANK GOD YOU ARENT A BLOODY STUDENT. 

[Shrimpica]

1 hour ago, dragonlordsd said:

The problem I have is not that this game is set in a school, but rather that from everything we've seen so far, this game seems to be set in a HIGH SCHOOL. Specifically, it seems to be set in a Japanese high school. A very stereotypical Japanese high school. In fact, I would not be surprised if there was some form of "club activities." And possibly even (shudder) a "school festival."

Really? This is not how it felt to me at all. Infact, it felt more like Harry Potter/Hogwarts then your typical jp high school.

[dragonlordsd]

3 minutes ago, Shrimperor said:

Really? This is not how it felt to me at all. Infact, it felt more like Harry Potter/Hogwarts then your typical jp high school.

Yeah, that wouldn't be too bad. I'm mostly hoping they avoid most of the stereotypes that wouldn't make sense for the time period. Harry Potter made some interesting decisions I could see being extended, so here's hoping.

@Zihark11 I'm completely with you on the reclassing, but like you said, it's usually optional. I mean, there are already so many jokes being made about Edelgard reclassing to brigand, and, to be fair, they are pretty funny.

Edited February 15, 2019 by dragonlordsd

[PrincessAlyson]

I get Harry Potter vibes as well. And they don't look like High School age. I think they're more college age. It is a military school, so that makes it more mature than just grade school IMO. I don't mind the setting as long as there is a greater plot outside it.

[Kiran_]

19 minutes ago, Zihark11 said:

As a person who hates reclassing (i love identity in characters and reclassing throws it out the window) i wont be using that feature unless its a must in the game. After my Fates im keeping my expectations low but it does look really good and the main character doesnt look lame this time around which is nice.

PS: THANK GOD YOU ARENT A BLOODY STUDENT. 

How does reclassing throw it out the window? I feel like it really allows characters to have their own identity if you so choose with a little bit of imagination. I mean, unless you're making everyone like the SAME class. But the ability to reclass allows a bit more flexibility in creating the story of these characters (like imagining Lissa taking flying lessons from her sister-in-law (if you like Sumia) and trying out being a Pegasus Knight). I just feel like it's so easy to be able to headcannon a story for the characters and what they're doing. But I also love writing, so maybe it's why I like being able to help create an identity in characters when possible.

But since it's optional, why hate it? It's like hating Phoenix mode just for existing, when it has 0 effect on you.

And also SECONDED. I'm so glad we're not students. Being a teacher is miles more fun (and I just like control)!

[PrincessAlyson]

3 minutes ago, Kiran_ said:

I just feel like it's so easy to be able to headcannon a story for the characters and what they're doing. But I also love writing, so maybe it's why I like being able to help create an identity in characters when possible.

But since it's optional, why hate it? It's like hating Phoenix mode just for existing, when it has 0 effect on you.

And also SECONDED. I'm so glad we're not students. Being a teacher is miles more fun (and I just like control)!

Agreed. I like reclassing because it lets me think of circumstances where the character would change. And of course, it's optional so I don't have to reclass every character if I don't feel like it. But people are free to like or dislike the mechanics if they want as long as it's not irrational hate. On another note, I am happy that we get to be the drill instructor as well. I definitely plan on showing favoritism to certain students, though I will make sure they're all awesome. 

[Zihark11]

3 minutes ago, Kiran_ said:

How does reclassing throw it out the window? I feel like it really allows characters to have their own identity if you so choose with a little bit of imagination. I mean, unless you're making everyone like the SAME class. But the ability to reclass allows a bit more flexibility in creating the story of these characters (like imagining Lissa taking flying lessons from her sister-in-law (if you like Sumia) and trying out being a Pegasus Knight). I just feel like it's so easy to be able to headcannon a story for the characters and what they're doing. But I also love writing, so maybe it's why I like being able to help create an identity in characters when possible.

But since it's optional, why hate it? It's like hating Phoenix mode just for existing, when it has 0 effect on you.

And also SECONDED. I'm so glad we're not students. Being a teacher is miles more fun (and I just like control)!

 i mean that would work if there was dialogue and quests that actually make that relevent otherwise your just making that kinda situation up in your head which is cool if you can do/enjoy that but thats never been a thing so its pointless to me.

 

For instance what do you think of when you hear the names Marcus, Seth, Frederick and Jagen? you think of Paladins/Cavaliers. if you could reclass them to something like wyvern knight or something everyone would be like "What? thats not Marcus!" It is there identity/character and i have never liked the idea of stripping characters of how they were introduced to us. 

An alternative i have thought was inspired by the master of arms class in fates, someone who is well versed in all weapons thus no need for a reclass system cause theres a class that helps cover your bases in itself. But this is just my opinion, i'm huge on character development/identity.

[Shrimpica]

1 minute ago, Zihark11 said:

For instance what do you think of when you hear the names Marcus, Seth, Frederick and Jagen? you think of Paladins/Cavaliers.

I think of units i never use

2 minutes ago, Zihark11 said:

f you could reclass them to something like wyvern knight or something everyone would be like "What? thats not Marcus!"

People reclass Jagen in the Marth remake games all the time and never say ''That's not Jagen!''

5 minutes ago, PrincessAlyson said:

Agreed. I like reclassing because it lets me think of circumstances where the character would change.

And don't forget the replayability.

I wouldn't have played Conquest 3 times if i was stuck with the same classes every time

[Chopper...]

59 minutes ago, Zihark11 said:

As a person who hates reclassing (i love identity in characters and reclassing throws it out the window) i wont be using that feature unless its a must in the game.

This is me. I don't reclass unless I really think a character needs a certain skill, and after obtaining it I go back, but reclassing in general bothers me on a strangely high level.

I'm also glad we won't be students... But I don't want to be a teacher either, I hate teaching hahaha.

[SimplyUnknown]

3 minutes ago, Zihark11 said:

 i mean that would work if there was dialogue and quests that actually make that relevent otherwise your just making that kinda situation up in your head which is cool if you can do/enjoy that but thats never been a thing so its pointless to me.

 

For instance what do you think of when you hear the names Marcus, Seth, Frederick and Jagen? you think of Paladins/Cavaliers. if you could reclass them to something like wyvern knight or something everyone would be like "What? thats not Marcus!" It is there identity/character and i have never liked the idea of stripping characters of how they were introduced to us. 

An alternative i have thought was inspired by the master of arms class in fates, someone who is well versed in all weapons thus no need for a reclass system cause theres a class that helps cover your bases in itself. But this is just my opinion, i'm huge on character development/identity.

Having dialogue and quest options to unlock alternate classes for characters would either need to be incredibly vague for all characters or require so much data that half the game would be dedicated to the same sidequest for different characters with slightly different lines every time. Not very practical in terms of gameplay within the story. 

The Master of Arms Class is something I feel wouldn't really work out well in this scenario. For one, it would be almost too easy to abuse within the game as you could simply have everyone swap in the required weapon to get the advantage no matter what enemy you're facing. For another, the Master of Arms implies mastery over all weapons, which wouldn't really work well with the idea of first level characters or ones who are just starting out and yet know how to use every single weapon and magic type out there. 

Also, I'm a little confused as to how swapping character classes applies to character development/identity with you. Most of the time, character classes don't really tie into the plot outside of game mechanics and starting classes. The few times it did, usually with lord promotions in earlier games where it happens at a specific time, they usually have a negative affect on gameplay because you're usually required to tote a level 20 character around who can't gain any more Exp or avoid feeding a required unit kills until they reach the chapter where they can promote. 

[Cysx]

36 minutes ago, Shrimperor said:

Really? This is not how it felt to me at all. Infact, it felt more like Harry Potter/Hogwarts then your typical jp high school.

Yeah, not sure I agree either. And also, while I definitely see the Hogwarts parallels, there don't seem to be any grades, and age doesn't seem to matter. Apparently, if you can learn how to fight, you can study there. Plus, we have a bunch of supposedly grown men that got revealed already, namely these guys:

   

Edited February 15, 2019 by Cysx

[Kiran_]

8 minutes ago, Zihark11 said:

 i mean that would work if there was dialogue and quests that actually make that relevent otherwise your just making that kinda situation up in your head which is cool if you can do/enjoy that but thats never been a thing so its pointless to me.

 

For instance what do you think of when you hear the names Marcus, Seth, Frederick and Jagen? you think of Paladins/Cavaliers. if you could reclass them to something like wyvern knight or something everyone would be like "What? thats not Marcus!" It is there identity/character and i have never liked the idea of stripping characters of how they were introduced to us. 

An alternative i have thought was inspired by the master of arms class in fates, someone who is well versed in all weapons thus no need for a reclass system cause theres a class that helps cover your bases in itself. But this is just my opinion, i'm huge on character development/identity.

That's fair. The only GOOD thing from Fates, I think was the A+ supports which allowed you to reclass into the friend's classes, and I loved that, because they essentially achieved the same thing as *relatively* limitless reclassing, but with a story behind it, which I agree, I would love dialogue or quests to accompany it. But also enjoy the abiltiy to just form those stories in my head.

And hahaha. That's really funny you say that, because when I think of Frederick I think Wyvern Knight, because I had him marry Cherche and she taught him to ride. XD So that's what he is to me. When I don't have the option like Seth, then he's always a Paladin (I think Great Knight specifically cause of branching promotions). But to each their own!

 

Also I agree with @Shrimperor about the replay value of having the ability to reclass. Each time I can have new stories/new ways of playing and new strategies to form which I think is the point of the game itself. So I just like customization as a whole, because I think it adds to identity.

[PrincessAlyson]

In Awakening and Fates, I always try new class combinations. Some characters I do keep the same because I like certain classes on those characters, but for the most part, I like to change it up. It adds an element of fun. 

[Ottservia]

43 minutes ago, Shrimperor said:

Really? This is not how it felt to me at all. Infact, it felt more like Harry Potter/Hogwarts then your typical jp high school.

same honestly. I did not once get the impression of modern Japanese high school. Cause if that were the case, I, too, would be rolling my eyes. It feels more like hogwarts or the DWMA from soul eater. Which I am all for btw. Dunno why but the idea of fantasy schools have always intrigued me and I've always loved how the libraries in these types of settings. So massive and teaming with knowledge. My only fear is that it ends up being like your generic light novel fantasy school. You know the one where the school is home to a bunch of kids with magical powers and the school is a place for them to hone said powers and the main character is some ultra special nice guy that gets all the girls because he's just that awesome. Thank naga we're not a student so that somewhat alleviates things but you never know. 

[Lau]

1 hour ago, Ottservia said:

 or the DWMA from soul eater.

The DWMA is the perfect way to describe Three Houses so far. Those students were also sent out on missions and such, which is what seems to be the case here.

I wouldn't worry too much. There's no guarantee that we'll be staying in a school setting. A time skip seems likely, judging from the first trailer, soo...let's just wait and see.

[Michelaar]

I did not see anything to suggest that this would be set in a Japanese high school?

[Zihark11]

1 hour ago, Shrimperor said:

I think of units i never use

People reclass Jagen in the Marth remake games all the time and never say ''That's not Jagen!''

And don't forget the replayability.

I wouldn't have played Conquest 3 times if i was stuck with the same classes every time

thats super funny the "units i never use" so true lol

1 hour ago, SimplyUnknown said:

Having dialogue and quest options to unlock alternate classes for characters would either need to be incredibly vague for all characters or require so much data that half the game would be dedicated to the same sidequest for different characters with slightly different lines every time. Not very practical in terms of gameplay within the story. 

The Master of Arms Class is something I feel wouldn't really work out well in this scenario. For one, it would be almost too easy to abuse within the game as you could simply have everyone swap in the required weapon to get the advantage no matter what enemy you're facing. For another, the Master of Arms implies mastery over all weapons, which wouldn't really work well with the idea of first level characters or ones who are just starting out and yet know how to use every single weapon and magic type out there. 

Also, I'm a little confused as to how swapping character classes applies to character development/identity with you. Most of the time, character classes don't really tie into the plot outside of game mechanics and starting classes. The few times it did, usually with lord promotions in earlier games where it happens at a specific time, they usually have a negative affect on gameplay because you're usually required to tote a level 20 character around who can't gain any more Exp or avoid feeding a required unit kills until they reach the chapter where they can promote. 

Not really? everyone would have a different side story for a class so not everyone could get whatever class they wanted. Valkyria Chronicles is a good example of a game that did a good job of this.

I think you misunderstood what i meant when i said master of arms. Only one or 2 (depending on how many characters are in the game) would be able to achieve the Master of arms class could be like a mage with access to all the magic while one guy could have access to all the weapon triangle. This was an alternate idea i had other then reclassing, which actually could be cool in this school setting cause because it shows that character acceled in all areas.

To me Character classes are a huge part of a characters identity. I am not sure how long youve been playing FE but when you think of a certain character they are always associated with that class "Joshua is the cool/slick gambling swordmaster" if he werent a swordmaster/myrmidon lots of vets would be like "wtf why is Joshua not a swordmaster" There class even sometimes has to do with story/character developments. Awakening and fates mostly through this out the window but it was what made characters iconic.

[Zihark11]

10 minutes ago, Michelaar said:

I did not see anything to suggest that this would be set in a Japanese high school?

Yeah its fair to make that assumption though cause nintendo is a japanese company, same with the fire emblem series. But yeah whoever in this chat said soul eater was spot on how to compare the school idea. this may be there way of trying to find a middle ground between the Japanese and west. which if that was the case would be a great move on there part.

Edited February 15, 2019 by Zihark11

[Ertrick36]

9 minutes ago, Michelaar said:

I did not see anything to suggest that this would be set in a Japanese high school?

People just assume because it's a school setting and is based out of Japan that it'll have "anime high school" vibes.  And that would entail a lot of slice-of-life moments, not too serious a plot, and plenty of silly tropes and gags.  If you need an example of this, watch some Valkyria Chronicles 2 cutscenes (specifically the parts that take place in schools).

I'm personally hoping that it'll be more serious than that.  Like many would say, more like Harry Potter, where there's lots of mystery, intrigue, and corruption within the school's administration/staff.  But I don't really know what to expect.

[Shrimpica]

16 minutes ago, Zihark11 said:

I am not sure how long youve been playing FE but when you think of a certain character they are always associated with that class

While i haven't been playing for that long, i did go and play the older games, and the only characters where i think as such are ones the have certain special wepaons/abilities.

Like FE4 and holy Weapons, or Ayra with Astra (should be first Astra user iirc), FE5 Ced's Student and Grafcalibur, Mareeta and her Sword, Ike and Ragnell, etc...

Otherwise, no, classes don't have much to do with Identity for me.

16 minutes ago, Zihark11 said:

Valkyria Chronicles is a good example of a game that did a good job of this.

Now if Fire Emblem did Squad Stories ala VC4, then yeah, reclassing would be an issue. But FE doesn't have those. 

speaking about VC, VC5 never it seems ;_;

 

7 minutes ago, Ertrick36 said:

And that would entail a lot of slice-of-life moments, not too serious a plot, and plenty of silly tropes and gags. 

Honestly, the Trailer didn't give those kind of vibes at all. If anything it was more serious then anything.

I am one to Despise the school setting, and in a certain series i love, think of the newer games like how the old FE fanbase thinks about awakening mostly thanks to the school setting. Both FE16 trailers gave me a complete different impression then the whole silly high school thing

Edited February 15, 2019 by Shrimperor

[SimplyUnknown]

7 minutes ago, Zihark11 said:

Not really? everyone would have a different side story for a class so not everyone could get whatever class they wanted. Valkyria Chronicles is a good example of a game that did a good job of this.

So there still would have to be a lot of data in the game to account for all the side stories. In terms of game space, it just doesn't make sense to me.

Quote

I think you misunderstood what i meant when i said master of arms. Only one or 2 (depending on how many characters are in the game) would be able to achieve the Master of arms class could be like a mage with access to all the magic while one guy could have access to all the weapon triangle. This was an alternate idea i had other then reclassing, which actually could be cool in this school setting cause because it shows that character acceled in all areas.

Having a character like that is interesting in theory, but more likely would become a Jack of All Stats and be a lackluster unit, or a Master Of None, in which case they become overpowered and overused. At least with reclassing, you have limits as to what a unit can and can't do which makes them more interesting in my opinion. 

Quote

To me Character classes are a huge part of a characters identity. I am not sure how long youve been playing FE but when you think of a certain character they are always associated with that class "Joshua is the cool/slick gambling swordmaster" if he werent a swordmaster/myrmidon lots of vets would be like "wtf why is Joshua not a swordmaster" There class even sometimes has to do with story/character developments. Awakening and fates mostly through this out the window but it was what made characters iconic.

I've been playing Fire Emblem for a few years, but I don't feel that a character's class is what makes them iconic. Joshua is a gambler, yes, but he's also the runaway heir to the throne of Jehanna, a lover of beautiful women, wearer of excellent hats, and has a strong noble streak in him behind all the flirting. Change his class and he's still the same character. He's just using a different set of weapons in a fight. It's easy to define a character solely on their class, but what makes them interesting is the story behind their character. 

[Zihark11]

2 minutes ago, SimplyUnknown said:

So there still would have to be a lot of data in the game to account for all the side stories. In terms of game space, it just doesn't make sense to me.

Having a character like that is interesting in theory, but more likely would become a Jack of All Stats and be a lackluster unit, or a Master Of None, in which case they become overpowered and overused. At least with reclassing, you have limits as to what a unit can and can't do which makes them more interesting in my opinion. 

I've been playing Fire Emblem for a few years, but I don't feel that a character's class is what makes them iconic. Joshua is a gambler, yes, but he's also the runaway heir to the throne of Jehanna, a lover of beautiful women, wearer of excellent hats, and has a strong noble streak in him behind all the flirting. Change his class and he's still the same character. He's just using a different set of weapons in a fight. It's easy to define a character solely on their class, but what makes them interesting is the story behind their character. 

I guess everyone has there own ways of identifying characters. 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Well if you want to talk authenticity to the Medieval/Early Modern eras, I've never gotten the impression that any Fire Emblem game was earnestly trying to recreate that sort of environment in its settings or characters. Most notably in how these worlds are so incredibly secular despite there being even less of a divide between the scientific (natural) and magical (spiritual) world. And it's not just a matter of which religion people believe in, it's about epistemology and not having a scientific method. A society where everything you cannot explain is the result of a supernatural influence outside of your own influence or understanding. It's about class structures based on a natural order wherein people choose a life of poverty because it is the most pious. These are a lot of foreign concepts to our modern sensibilities and Fire Emblem has always been no more historically driven then your local medieval times plays and fairs. Everybody plays dressup, spout some old English, and chomps on some delicious mutton before going home to civilization.

Everybody's coming in with their own conceptions of what a church or school looks and feels like, hence why we've heard all these wildly different suggestions from people in a different head-space. It's like Hogwartz, it's like real life high school, it's like Persona, it's like my harem animes. Of course what matters at the end of the day is that we get a world and a story that is logically and tonally consistent not to real world history but to its own world. Don't have paralogues that feel like they take place in a different universe and time. Don't suggest your war is being waged over access to resources when the royal family has access to an alternate dimension where time doesn't pass and has infinite resources. Don't have a plot that is centered on human tensions and politics just get upended by "But suddenly, GOD came in and smote everyone!".

Edited February 15, 2019 by Glennstavos

[Ertrick36]

1 minute ago, Shrimperor said:

Honestly, the Trailer didn't give those kind of vibes at all. If anything it was more serious then anything.

I don't get the impression much, either.  But it's always a possibility.  I would've thought a game like Valkyria Chronicles would've retained its relatively serious focus on war, yet the second game devolved into a lot of tropey nonsense and anime high school hijinks that was peppered with the occasional delving into a civil war that honestly just feels disconnected from the school setting (which seems to be the primary focus of the game, unfortunately).

Though one thing that's different between this game and that one (or really, any of the anime high schools I know) is that the protagonist is a teacher rather than a student.  So the focus will be less on the student cliques and more on teacher-student relationships, which is more promising IMO (as much as people make fun of this by referencing Persona and Van Halen, I'm at least interested to see the platonic side of this).

 

To the discussions about classes, I think there's a lot more that defines these characters both as characters and as units than just what classes they start as.  And particularly since they're all students, it's more sensible that they'd be so open to change.

In all FE's, characters at least have growth rates and base stats to set themselves apart from others.  Gwendolyn is well known for being a low-level armor that has a greater focus on speed than defense, for example - yes, the armor part is part of her identity as a unit, but so too are her stats.  Then in Path of Radiance and later Awakening and Fates, we got skills - particularly Fates' personal skills.  And then Echoes introduced Combat Arts and special spell lists, which gave certain characters like the Whitewings or the villagers their own identities as units.

Honestly, it'll be interesting to see what roles will best suit some of these students.  Would Hilda and Bernadetta be best off using bows like we've seen in trailers, or would their stats and skills better suit them towards axe fighters?  Is the axe really the best weapon for Edelgard, or should she use a different weapon?  Are there any special weapons for certain characters?  I think it's mighty interesting being able to experiment and see how these units can be molded.