The place of a protagonist in Fire Emblem

[NekoKnight]

Naturally, I should start with a disclaimer that we know very little about Three Houses, but I feel we know enough to make educated guesses and have a discussion.

Like many people, I have some apprehension about the usage of an avatar in Three Houses. The series began flirting with the idea way back in Blazing Sword where the lords occasionally directed some comments towards Mark but it was mostly tame and non-intrusive. Eliwood, Hector and Lyn remained the power trio and were primarily focused on, with the avatar being little more than an observer. The next instance an avatar was used was Kris in New Mystery, who was widely criticized for poaching lines from established characters and derailing the actual main character so more praise could be directed at the player. Our third avatar was Robin, and while they were also praised and important to the story, I would argue that the attention they get is proportional to the amount they contribute to the party. Fates is where the shit really hit the fan with the story and characters all warping around the black hole that was Corrin. Corrin was always absolved of any wrongdoings, and a character's morality was generally dependent on how much they liked Corrin.

This post isn't to talk about player worship specifically, rather the place of a  main character. One thing I've really enjoyed about the series is the ensemble cast. My first game was Blazing Sword and even though I was given a token viewpoint 'character', I didn't grow to love the game/series because I got to be this charismatic badass, it's because I loved the relationships between the characters and was invested in their journey. Indeed, the bonds between characters is probably one of the strongest themes persistent throughout the series. The character recruitment song is "Together we ride", to emphasize the journey is a team effort. Together we can challenge our fates, defeat gods, and even return from the dead! So when I look at some of the more modern games, I feel they're losing sight of what makes this series so endearing. Even if they were to scale back from Corrin levels of avatar worship, I don't think Byleth is going to be a healthy addition to the series because this series isn't about chosen ones saving the world through their exclusive super powers.

Let me start off my summary of the other protagonists by stating that I know they're usually from privileged backgrounds and sometimes people praise them as paragons for their legendary efforts. For the most part, however, I would describe them as being leaders instead of saviors. I'll start with Blazing Sword. In that game we had three primary lords with a handful of supporting characters. While they were noble of spirit and background, they didn't have special powers and they relied on each other to save the world from the machinations of Nergal. The Sacred Stones primary cast was similarly 'normal', banding together to fight a powerful demon lord. Path of Radiance follows up with an even humbler origin and team focused effort to stop Mad King Ashnard. Awakening is all about only being able to succeed together and despite the leads having important lineages, it's more about their very human efforts.  I don't have as much knowledge about the Kaga games, and I'm foggy on Binding Blade, but from what I do understand, they are similar in spirit. The only 'veteran' game that seems to deviate from this pattern is Micaiah who is gifted with many powers. Micaiah becomes a literal savior to the people of Deian, in part because she has powers that aid her in her journey and inspire people to support her cause. This would seemingly put her in the same category as the other protagonists I'm about about to criticize, but she is still quite different. Part 1 of Radiant Dawn does follow a pattern of Micaiah succeeding at everything she does and being loved by all who are sympathetic but things go downhill for her in part 3 and onward. Her nation is put under the control of a foreign power and is still full of hateful bigots, neither of which her powers can help her with. By herself, Micaiah can't be a savior and she needs the support of her comrades to stay on track.

So now I'd like to discuss some of the modern games, namely Fates and Shadows of Valentia (I already talked about why Kris was bad). In Fates, Corrin does have a super special lineage but his powers aren't directly responsible for his success (being able to transform into a dragon has zero relevance and every major cast member can use dragon veins). What the story does have in spades however is a protagonist focused story. The major events and character motivations are all tied to you. The two sets of siblings fight over you like a piece of meat, villains plan their days around hating you for no reason and the story itself is about how YOU are the chosen one. Only YOU get the Yato, Only YOU can unite two warring nations and defeat a dragon god. YOU the player will decide the fate of the world, and not even death will stop you, because you're too important to die. It's fate.

SoV falls into similar potholes (while being significantly less obnoxious) for Alm's story route. YOU Alm is a chosen one. Only YOU Alm can use the two plot swords needed to slay a god. Only YOU Alm, the son of an emperor, can unite the continent with your his perfect balance of strength and compassion. Sure, other people can help along the way, but all of his comrades will be quick to point out how gosh darn special YOU Alm is. What both of these games do is reduce the team effort to literal chosen ones who are primarily responsible for the success of their stories. Hinoka and Tobin couldn't be the protagonists of their story. They simply aren't special enough, they never could be. 

This is why I'm wary of Byleth and their "special powers only they have". It's one thing to be in a position of leadership and get all the praise and attention that comes with being the protagonist but it's another matter when you are literally chosen by fate or gods in order for your stories to reach their conclusion. Being absolutely irreplaceable in a story undermines the value of the supporting cast.

I'm aware there are elements to the other games that make this discussion more murky, such as holy blood and legendary weapons, but I'll be happy to hear your take on how the stories in the past were structured.
 

Edited February 16, 2019 by NekoKnight

[Thane]

The way the trailer talked to "us" repeatedly concerns me. "You alone" and "special powers" are not things I have positive connotations with in Fire Emblem. We've yet to hear a single adjective associated with the three house leaders (nor Byleth's personality but that's because they won't have one, unless it's "nice and stoic" a la Persona), and I'm afraid of them devolving into Byleth's cheerleaders.

Buuut...

11 minutes ago, NekoKnight said:

the lords occasionally directed some comments towards Mark but it was mostly tame and non-intrusive

I disagree with this. Characters looking right at me, the player, just like in Echoes when people hold their life story monologues, is about as intrusive as it gets for me. 

[NekoKnight]

Just now, Thane said:

I disagree with this. Characters looking right at me, the player, just like in Echoes when people hold their life story monologues, is about as intrusive as it gets for me. 

It's fine to find the comments to the player jarring and unnecessary but I said "non intrusive" to mean that Mark is never used to leech story importance from the other characters. The game is never about him besides being a silent confidant for the team. Character growth and plot developments don't depend on Mark being there.

[Thane]

10 minutes ago, NekoKnight said:

The game is never about him besides being a silent confidant for the team. Character growth and plot developments don't depend on Mark being there.

That's fair. 

But how will I handle the lack of my ego getting stroked? 

[Flere210]

Your problem is basically that avatars have a track record of being mary sues, wich i agree. But 90% of the lord are mary sue.

Marth get recognized as the legendary hero king that saved the world and he seems to be the only one aware that it was a team effort. And the one guy that got jealus because Marth got all the credit became Satan because of it.

Sigurd is a deconstruction, but fall flat when seliph come and is the straightest marth expy we ever saw.

You mentioned Micaiah but the Messiah  of Radiant Dawn is actually Ike. Only he can wield Ragnell, only he can kill Ashera, only he get a fated duel with his arch nemesis not once but twice, only he get to save the day on the fucking Elincia part and he got praised by everyone in the story continously like if the PoR playtrought was an Ike solo challenge. The only reason i don't consider him as much of a black hole as Corrin is because he is not featless.

 

Fire emblem protagonist have a long history of not having flaws except for things like being too kind or trusting everyone, it not a new problem, and even when they make mistake usually the narrative does everything it can to justify them. Corrin just excerbate it by turning them up to eleven. The difference beetwen an RD ike or an Alm and an avatar imo is minimal. Even if Byleth was not an avatar he would most probably still be the umpteenth flawless lord.

 

 

Edited February 16, 2019 by Flere210

[NekoKnight]

1 minute ago, Flere210 said:

Your problem is basically that avatars have a track record of being mary sues, wich i agree. But 90% of the lord are mary sue.

You mentioned Micaiah but the Messiah  of Radiant Dawn is actually Ike. Only he can wield Ragnell, only he can kill Ashera, only he get a fated duel with his arch nemesis not once but twice, only he get to save the day on the fucking Elincia part and he got praised by everyone in the story continously like if the PoR playtrought was an Ike solo challenge. The only reason i don't consider him as much of a black hole as Corrin is because he is not featless.

Eh, I can't say I agree. Certainly, many protagonists aren't punished to the degree Sigurd is, but I think there is more to a Mary Sue than a lack of obvious flaws. A Mary Sue will be explicitly better than everyone around them, either morally or in terms of skill and power. It's not just that they are praise worthy, it's that they couldn't possibly be in the wrong, like Corrin or Alm. Mary Sue isn't a term we should use lightly.

Anyway, the crux of my argument is, it's a negative when no one could be the protagonist besides that person because there is something inherit in their being that makes them irreplaceable. Of the things you mentioned for Ike, only the part about him being able to kill Ashera would fit the bill, and that's probably more a matter of him having the weapon for the job rather than something only he could do. If Mia had Ragnel, she could do the same. Fighting the Black Knight is irrelevant to the conclusion of the story and anyone could have saved Elincia.

[Cysx]

While I don't specifically want to make this conversation about Alm, it's worth noting that the game doesn't present him as being always right, if anything, Celica's point of view is given considerable credence... until a certain point of the story, that is. Alm's plans aren't presented as flawless, and the main opposing narrative isn't presented as constantly wrong. His actions also led to the deaths of his father and cousin. Overall, his successes are conveyed as happenstance rather than him being flawless, and though I agree that he doesn't leave enough shining room to the supporting cast, I don't think this is specific to him at all as far as FE protagonists go. He's just slightly worse about it than most of the others.

 

Anyway, I too had a bunch of red flags raised as a result of the newest trailer. There's no longer a doubt that Byleth is gonna be super special and central to the plot, and also potentially the kind of characters everyone relies on completely and that has all of them, even the reasonably competent ones, completely hopeless without him around. Hopefully, that second part doesn't end up being true.
Still, there were other interesting things that may prevent another Corrin; for example Byleth was never presented as the commander of armies. While he will likely be de-facto if we're being honest, as far as the narrative goes... well he's a teacher. His role is parallel to the students/headmasters rather than higher on the same scale. As an instructor, even if he has some larger place in the plot, the dynamics are necessarily different because his primary goal is for his students to become better, not himself through them; allegedly anyway. And, as we all know, we have characters to fit the commander roles that were actually repeatedly shown doing just that. Unfortunately this was also the case for Xander and Ryoma, so we can't rejoice just yet.

Now the fact that Byleth joins battles and was clearly shown getting his hands dirty and wielding the super special weapon of legends TM does undermine what I just said. Also, him going from mercenary to teacher implies that education might just be the mean to a different, currently unknown goal. So, it's all about whether or not they'll balance the whole thing properly. But, still, the fact that he was presented as a teacher first and foremost is a good thing, methinks.

Edited February 16, 2019 by Cysx

[vanguard333]

6 hours ago, NekoKnight said:

SoV falls into similar potholes (while being significantly less obnoxious) for Alm's story route. YOU Alm is a chosen one. Only YOU Alm can use the two plot swords needed to slay a god. Only YOU Alm, the son of an emperor, can unite the continent with your his perfect balance of strength and compassion. Sure, other people can help along the way, but all of his comrades will be quick to point out how gosh darn special YOU Alm is. What both of these games do is reduce the team effort to literal chosen ones who are primarily responsible for the success of their stories. Hinoka and Tobin couldn't be the protagonists of their story. They simply aren't special enough, they never could be. 

Easily my least-favourite part of Echoes. It should've been about Alm and Celica needing each other in order to balance and complement each other, but no; it had to be all about Alm; they had to place gratification of Alm over actually writing Alm, which is the defining characteristic of a Gary Stu. 

With this game, I was hoping after the first trailer that the fact that Byleth is the teacher will mean that the spotlight will be on the students and Byleth would just be in the background. But now, after the second trailer, it's obvious that Byleth is going to be a very major character with a unique sword and a little-girl dragon in his head. We're still the teacher, but still...

I agree; a protagonist is always important to a story, but the strength of FE stories has always been in the strength of the supporting cast and how they all have their own backstories and potential moments to shine, and it's all about all of you working together to save the day. The best FE protagonists have all had speeches where they admit that they could only get as far as they did because of the people around them: Marth, Ike, Micaiah, etc.

The fact that each soldier in your army is a person with a name, a face and a story makes it feel more like a good war story, and when the supporting characters aren't given enough depth or are pushed aside in favour of glorifying the protagonist, we (the players) notice. I seriously hope that the supporting cast has plenty of depth and they all have their little moments to shine, and that Byleth is no one special (or rather, no one undeservingly special). 

 

5 hours ago, Flere210 said:

Your problem is basically that avatars have a track record of being mary sues, which I agree. But 90% of the lord are mary sue.

Marth get recognized as the legendary hero king that saved the world and he seems to be the only one aware that it was a team effort. And the one guy that got jealous because Marth got all the credit became Satan because of it.

This is far from true. There's a difference between being a bland Marth expy and a Mary Sue. "90%" of FE lords are Marth expies, but they are not mary sues.

Marth is a rightful heir hero and a chosen wielder for the Falchion and the Shield of Seals. He's bland, but he's not a mary sue. Everyone at the end of Shadow Dragon is holding him in high regard for the same reason Anri was held in high regard: winning the war was a team effort, but only they could wield the Falchion and strike the final blow against Medeus. Before then, no one holds Marth in any high regard. The closest thing to it occurs when the people of Altea cheer when Marth and his team liberate Altea. But that's because the rightful heir has returned and reclaimed the homeland. 

No antagonist in Shadow Dragon or Mystery of the Emblem had jealousy of Marth as a motivation. Are you talking about Hardin with that second part? Because that's flat-out wrong; Hardin's fall to darkness came when he found out his wife didn't actually love him and Gharnef gave him the Darksphere; promising it would ease his pain, but instead it brainwashed him. 

5 hours ago, Flere210 said:

You mentioned Micaiah but the Messiah of Radiant Dawn is actually Ike. Only he can wield Ragnell, only he can kill Ashera, only he get a fated duel with his arch nemesis not once but twice, only he get to save the day on the fucking Elincia part and he got praised by everyone in the story continuously like if the PoR playthrough was an Ike solo challenge. The only reason I don't consider him as much of a black hole as Corrin is because he is not featless.

Micaiah is the hero of part 1 of the story, and boy does she have to earn it. She doesn't just appear and suddenly everyone starts treating her like a magic Joan of Arc; people grew to respect her for her actions. 

As for Ike, there's something you don't seem to understand: heroes of the first iteration of a story are allowed to have a heroic reputation in the second iteration. This also applies to Marth in Mystery of the Emblem. Only he can wield Ragnell because Sanaki gave it to him and insisted that he keep it. As for a fated duel with his arch-nemesis, that's explained by the Black Knight saying he let Ike win back in Path of Radiance. That undermines your argument, as it means that Ike failed to measure up in Path of Radiance. 

The reason that people hold Ike in such high regard in Radiant Dawn is because he led the army that saved the world from Ashnard. It's not out of being a Mary Sue; it's out of being a Paragon: a hero that inspires others and acts as a catalyst for character development. Almost everyone that speaks fondly of Ike is talking about how they inspired him: this includes Sothe, Elincia, Reyson, etc. He's an inspiration; that's the reason why he's held in high regard. 

For the final nail in the coffin of your "Ike is a mary sue": Radiant Dawn reveals that there's a very large group of people that strongly dislike and vilify Ike: the people of Daein. In their eyes, it's because of him that Daein lost the war and they're under the control of Begnion, and they strongly dislike him for it. Micaiah herself gets strongly fed up whenever Sothe brings up Ike. It's only in Part 4, after she actually talks to Ike and sees the positive influence Ike had on Sothe, that she even begins to somewhat warm up to him.

[Book Bro]

At the risk of being an "old man yelling at cloud", yeah, it's a bad trend and it honestly just screams egocentrism to me that players expect or even demand avatars in FE now.

As someone who started with FE7, the characters speaking to me and "being in the story" was cool, so I understand to some degree, but I never wished that I could be the focus of the story and I never missed being "included" when I later played sequels and prequels. I simply find it disappointing that, apparently, some players can't relate to the story or characters unless they're the focus. And frankly, it's worrying, because while these are just video games, I still think that if someone is put off by a game that doesn't make them the star it probably speaks to their inability or unwillingness to connect with other real-life people. Which, judging by many things happening in the world, is a real problem. Note that I'm not saying everyone who enjoys avatars are like this, it's more the smaller group who, jokingly or not, demand avatars and marriage in every new FE game.

As for the whole "special" status of recent protagonists, I think this is a big part of the "too anime" criticism. Obviously it's not a trait exclusive to anime protagonists nor is it entirely new to FE, but it's definitely been taken to a higher level than before, and that correlates with the bigger emphasis on avatars. It's all meant to make the player feel special. I think Alm did suffer from this, where IS felt he had to stand in for the player to a degree and therefore couldn't be too flawed. I'll be interested to see how they handle Sigurd and Seliph, assuming 4 is the next remake. If 6 is next, I think Roy could unfortunately suffer like Alm, since for me part of what makes Roy interesting is that he's pretty naive and I would much prefer if a remake explored that part of him instead of just doubling down on what a good kid he is.

[NekoKnight]

6 hours ago, Cysx said:

While I don't specifically want to make this conversation about Alm, it's worth noting that the game doesn't present him as being always right, if anything, Celica's point of view is given considerable credence... until a certain point of the story, that is. Alm's plans aren't presented as flawless, and the main opposing narrative isn't presented as constantly wrong. His actions also led to the deaths of his father and cousin. Overall, his successes are conveyed as happenstance rather than him being flawless, and though I agree that he doesn't leave enough shining room to the supporting cast, I don't think this is specific to him at all as far as FE protagonists go. He's just slightly worse about it than most of the others.

Indeed, I could talk at length about all the ways I think Alm's story is problematic but this isn't the thread for that. I will say that multiple characters admit Alm is straight up better than them, which is credited to some innate quality (hint hint, he's a chosen one and royalty) and Duma can only be defeated by Alm, which makes SoV a very Alm-centric story when it didn't need to be.

9 minutes ago, Book Bro said:

At the risk of being an "old man yelling at cloud", yeah, it's a bad trend and it honestly just screams egocentrism to me that players expect or even demand avatars in FE now.

Don't worry, we're all old men yelling at clouds in this thread.

You know, it's not like I think being special is even that bad for a story. In Diablo III, you're a superhuman capable of mowing down waves of demons. In Dragon Age, you're a powerful warrior and the only one capable of putting down a dragon god. In the Legend of Zelda, you're a reincarnation of a hero that is more or less destined to slay the evil threatening Hyrule. What's different about these games is that they're more focused on a lone protagonist (with some help from others) being the savior of a land. These are the stories suited for prophesies and chosen ones. They're about a legendary individual. But Fire Emblem, as I've come to appreciate it, is about teamwork.

It's not like an Avatar even has to be flawless and overpraised. I think Robin was well done for the most part and what made them special was more a detriment to them than cause for celebration.

28 minutes ago, Book Bro said:

I think Alm did suffer from this, where IS felt he had to stand in for the player to a degree and therefore couldn't be too flawed. I'll be interested to see how they handle Sigurd and Seliph, assuming 4 is the next remake. If 6 is next, I think Roy could unfortunately suffer like Alm, since for me part of what makes Roy interesting is that he's pretty naive and I would much prefer if a remake explored that part of him instead of just doubling down on what a good kid he is.

I'm concerned for this as well, but I would be interested in playing those remakes, Genealogy in particular.

[Onestep]

11 minutes ago, NekoKnight said:

You know, it's not like I think being special is even that bad for a story. In Diablo III, you're a superhuman capable of mowing down waves of demons. In Dragon Age, you're a powerful warrior and the only one capable of putting down a dragon god. In the Legend of Zelda, you're a reincarnation of a hero that is more or less destined to slay the evil threatening Hyrule. What's different about these games is that they're more focused on a lone protagonist (with some help from others) being the savior of a land. These are the stories suited for prophesies and chosen ones. They're about a legendary individual. But Fire Emblem, as I've come to appreciate it, is about teamwork.

It's not like an Avatar even has to be flawless and overpraised. I think Robin was well done for the most part and what made them special was more a detriment to them than cause for celebration.

Just chiming in to say that I agree that Robin, in terms of role in the story, was probably the best done Avatar so far. He had flaws and failings that were made manifest in the story, along with his talents. Corrin was simply too blessed for the most part, and Kris... Well, Kris was acctually fairly well-done as well, he just had the misfortune to have the focus of his whole story be 'Steal Marth's thunder' which people were rightly a bit put off about.

[Errorik]

I've always thought the avatar character is a mistake. It leads the story into really dumb situations/moments because the avatar has to be special/important/cool simply because of wanting to compliment the player. There's a lot of this for Corrin. Tbh, I spam start at every cinematic etc after my first playthrough, so I'm not too concerned about story. I do think this "make the player feel cool even when they're not" tactic can bleed into gameplay. The avatar being good at everything or having a straight up advantage over most units annoys me.

[vanguard333]

35 minutes ago, Centh said:

I've always thought the avatar character is a mistake. It leads the story into really dumb situations/moments because the avatar has to be special/important/cool simply because of wanting to compliment the player. There's a lot of this for Corrin. Tbh, I spam start at every cinematic etc after my first playthrough, so I'm not too concerned about story. I do think this "make the player feel cool even when they're not" tactic can bleed into gameplay. The avatar being good at everything or having a straight up advantage over most units annoys me.

I agree. The question I've always had is: why do they feel that they have to compliment the player? When playing any other game series with a custom protagonist, rarely if ever did I feel like the game was going out of its way to compliment me. The appeal of having a custom character is immersion, and all this player-centric writing does the exact opposite of immersion. 

As for the straight-up advantage, I think they need to reconsider the customization system. In Awakening and Fates, the player character was given a unique class and then asked what stat you want your character to be good at and which one you want your character to suck at. They should give it a rethink; make it something perhaps a bit more in-depth that makes it that you choose what your character's good at, but your character isn't perfect at everything. 

[Ottservia]

43 minutes ago, NekoKnight said:

You know, it's not like I think being special is even that bad for a story. In Diablo III, you're a superhuman capable of mowing down waves of demons. In Dragon Age, you're a powerful warrior and the only one capable of putting down a dragon god. In the Legend of Zelda, you're a reincarnation of a hero that is more or less destined to slay the evil threatening Hyrule. What's different about these games is that they're more focused on a lone protagonist (with some help from others) being the savior of a land. These are the stories suited for prophesies and chosen ones. They're about a legendary individual. But Fire Emblem, as I've come to appreciate it, is about teamwork.

this is basically my stance on the matter as well. I mean personally I don't mind chosen ones or avatars or whatever so long as the story is built around it. Persona is a good example of a game whose story centers around an avatar but it works because the game mechanics, story, and themes are built around the idea of an avatar and player worship. I mean the whole point of persona 5's story is that YOU have the power to change society. All it takes is one voice and YOU are that voice in this particular story.  The whole point is player empowerment(sort of). It's all about what kind of story you want to tell and how you go about telling that story. Fire emblem stories tend to have a problem with this at least recently. I dunno about the tellius games as I have yet to play them but as far as the 3ds titles are concerned the only one that really understands that is awakening and even then. Like a story's themes, ideas, and messages should be deeply intertwined with the arc of its protagonist because well they're the focus of the story so the core idea that the story is exploring should be reflected in them as characters. This is where fates and SoV sort of fail cause the themes of the story are not at all reflected and are even contradicted through the protagonist. It manifests itself in different ways sure and SoV is not nearly as bad with this as fates is but at the end of the day they suffer from the same core issue.

3 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

This is far from true. There's a difference between being a bland Marth expy and a Mary Sue. "90%" of FE lords are Marth expies, but they are not mary sues.

agreed. A mary sue, at least to me, is a character who bends and warps the story to center around them. Basically the story bends over backgrounds and shoves its head up its ass JUST to make the main character seem cooler. Rules of the universe and continuity be damned.

[vanguard333]

2 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

agreed. A mary sue, at least to me, is a character who bends and warps the story to center around them. Basically the story bends over backgrounds and shoves its head up its ass JUST to make the main character seem cooler. Rules of the universe and continuity be damned.

That basically is the definition of a Mary Sue. Gratification and glorification of the character takes precedence over actually writing the character. 

[Onestep]

Wrong forum.

Edited February 16, 2019 by Onestep

[vanguard333]

10 minutes ago, Onestep said:

Wrong forum.

The title may make it seem so, but the main focus is on how this relates to Byleth and whether or not we should be concerned. 

[Onestep]

2 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

The title may make it seem so, but the main focus is on how this relates to Byleth and whether or not we should be concerned. 

Oh, I beg your pardon. I meant that I made my post in the wrong forum. This topic is more than suitable for the forum.

[Interdimensional Observer]

I'm staying away from the FE3H board like the leprosy, mal aria, the English Sweats, and whatever pathogen(s) the Black Death was (what? I read a chapter on medieval diseases).

Nonetheless, I couldn't help but click on this topic just to see what the spirit of the OP was. Fairly good @NekoKnight.

 

I am going to add that not having an avatar does not mean player immersion does not exist, as Alm above indicated. For someone inoffensive like Marth or Seliph or Roy, I can envision the player, if not admitting to it consciously, unconsciously becoming them to a degree.

Isn't the reason the mild and kind personality is chosen in the first place is because it is an attempt to make the main character relatable to the player?

And furthermore, although Marth in narrative is supposed to be saying "Ogma go there, Wrys heal Ogma, Caeda flirt with Roger and then kill the boss, Lena, warp me!", you are actually the person making all these decisions in gameplay, since this is a game and you are the player. Therefore, any praise that goes to Marth you may indirectly take happily as praise for yourself.

 

Where this fails is with Supports. Here the player and the lord are certainly two different people, whereas Robin's supports are supposed to be closer to treating you as the player as Robin.

And of course, more boisterous lords may not be so immersible to the player, but then again, depending on the player in question, they might be more so. A gentle kiddo might immerse with Marth or Roy or Eirika, but not with Hector, who along with Ephraim and Ike would be immersible for some shonen lover, while Marth would not.

And then I guess this begs the question whether there is such a thing as a perfectly immersible MC, silent/self-insert or not. The obvious answer is absolutely perfect immersi-bility does not exist, but close to perfect? That is the question.

Edited February 16, 2019 by Interdimensional Observer

[Interdimensional Observer]

I can't edit my above post, so sorry for the double.

10 hours ago, NekoKnight said:

Of the things you mentioned for Ike, only the part about him being able to kill Ashera would fit the bill, and that's probably more a matter of him having the weapon for the job rather than something only he could do

That has nothing to do with Ragnell. There is no real reason for it, other than Ike being really really strong, probably the strongest there is (and even if say Caineghis is stronger, he isn't forced into the final battle, Ike is), and Ike is really determined to kill Ashera.

Also, Ashera and Yune are stated in 4-F-3 in the Extended Script that they can't harm each other directly. They needed proxies to funnel their power through, and Ike is Yune's proxy, although I guess anyone else could've worked if they were strong enough. Micaiah for instance. (In RD's remake in 2035, I call for a new final blow cutscene where Ike and Micaiah perform a modified version of Shinra Bansho.)

Ike has to equip Ragnell only because Yune thinks he has a real affinity for the weapon, that it is his ideal weapon. That is it.

[Aiddon]

I fail to see how Bayleth being important is in any way a bad thing, that's just being a main character, that's how narrative writing has been for literally all of human history. Furthermore, even when the player character took the front seat that didn't mean the other characters suffered as they clearly went through arcs and the Supports also helped flesh them out so they have a lot of personality. This likely won't change with Three Houses and that's fine

[Ottservia]

21 minutes ago, Aiddon said:

I fail to see how Bayleth being important is in any way a bad thing, that's just being a main character, that's how narrative writing has been for literally all of human history. Furthermore, even when the player character took the front seat that didn't mean the other characters suffered as they clearly went through arcs and the Supports also helped flesh them out so they have a lot of personality. This likely won't change with Three Houses and that's fine

It's not a matter of it being an inherently bad thing but rather its more of a fear of how IS will handle such a story based on past experience with characters like Corrin and Alm. I myself mostly agree with what you're saying but I do understand where people like nekoknight are coming from. If corrin is anything to go by, then IS still needs to figure out how exactly to write a story where an avatar character is the focus. They did a decent job with robin but in fates they just kind of failed to realize why/how robin worked and just made the stupidest LN harem protag that is corrin. Then they did it again with Alm just not as bad. Still terrible but not as much. IS just seems to not be able to write good protagonists without them devolving into some sort of avatar of the player in some form or fashion. Meaning that the character is then not allowed to make mistakes or screw up at all because that would make them "unrelatable". Most of the time its not really a problem because the story is kind of built around it or the story is simplistic enough with it's themes and such for it to work but in some cases it is detrimental to the story. I mean I choose to stay optimistic but I also understand where the concerns are coming from. 

[Kiran_]

3 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Where this fails is with Supports. Here the player and the lord are certainly two different people, whereas Robin's supports are supposed to be closer to treating you as the player as Robin.

And of course, more boisterous lords may not be so immersible to the player, but then again, depending on the player in question, they might be more so. A gentle kiddo might immerse with Marth or Roy or Eirika, but not with Hector, who along with Ephraim and Ike would be immersible for some shonen lover, while Marth would not.

And then I guess this begs the question whether there is such a thing as a perfectly immersible MC, silent/self-insert or not. The obvious answer is absolutely perfect immersi-bility does not exist, but close to perfect? That is the question.

I agree with this last part. It's so HARD to find an immersible MC, silent/self-insert or not. I've never immersed with any of the characters really because the moment they have a backstory/history/etc, they are no longer ME.

But ... in the case of Robin, I loved him because he was my personal, customizable unit. He wasn't "me", but he was little prodigy and I very much enjoyed his personality. Whereas Corrin was no longer my little prodigy, but just this really annoying, naive character that everyone talked about all the time for no reason.

Then you have something like Tales of Xilla 2 with Ludger or Joker from Persona 5, who play the "silent protag" with limited personality. The problem is, they don't always have options that fit ME. So personally even in these games, I'm still NOT being immersed. They're once again, just a customizable unit I'm controlling. Also ... on a weird note, because I'm neither straight or white, it's really hard for me to FEEL like a self-insert in any game where I cant' customize the skin-tone.

The only game that had an ALMOST perfect character? Dragon Age: Inquisition. I could choose as many sarcastic, hateful, morally grey options as I wanted. His personality was entirely mine, and people hated or liked me based on my choices like in real life. I felt that was a perfect scenario (for me).

In terms of Fire Emblem and more specifically Three Houses, Byleth (a white male) is probably gonna fall closer to either Robin, or Joker in terms of being immersible. So ... not really. But I don't mind that. I would just rather have a super customizable unit that has their own story/life/etc than a silent one with really limited options of dialogue. But it feels as if Byleth is going to be silent, so I'm hoping for a breadth of dialogue options we can choose to make it more like that.

Personally though, I think Awakening did it best. I like the idea of the tactician being a CHARACTER that we can customize and has a place in the story. I liked that Chrom was the main lord. In the Fire Emblem with Lyn, Eliwood and Hector I just wish Mark was a unit we could create and fight with, but I wouldn't have had him to have any more of a place in the story than that. In this case, I'm disappointed that Byleth is the super special one because it feels like a Corrin situation and player worship is annoyng. But I'm hoping the three Lords, Edelgard, Dimitri and Claude have a heavy presence and remain the focus of the story because I think Fire Emblem does best in these situations.

[Lewyn]

6 hours ago, Book Bro said:

At the risk of being an "old man yelling at cloud", yeah, it's a bad trend and it honestly just screams egocentrism to me that players expect or even demand avatars in FE now.

As someone who started with FE7, the characters speaking to me and "being in the story" was cool, so I understand to some degree, but I never wished that I could be the focus of the story and I never missed being "included" when I later played sequels and prequels. I simply find it disappointing that, apparently, some players can't relate to the story or characters unless they're the focus. And frankly, it's worrying, because while these are just video games, I still think that if someone is put off by a game that doesn't make them the star it probably speaks to their inability or unwillingness to connect with other real-life people. Which, judging by many things happening in the world, is a real problem. Note that I'm not saying everyone who enjoys avatars are like this, it's more the smaller group who, jokingly or not, demand avatars and marriage in every new FE game.

As for the whole "special" status of recent protagonists, I think this is a big part of the "too anime" criticism. Obviously it's not a trait exclusive to anime protagonists nor is it entirely new to FE, but it's definitely been taken to a higher level than before, and that correlates with the bigger emphasis on avatars. It's all meant to make the player feel special. I think Alm did suffer from this, where IS felt he had to stand in for the player to a degree and therefore couldn't be too flawed. I'll be interested to see how they handle Sigurd and Seliph, assuming 4 is the next remake. If 6 is next, I think Roy could unfortunately suffer like Alm, since for me part of what makes Roy interesting is that he's pretty naive and I would much prefer if a remake explored that part of him instead of just doubling down on what a good kid he is.

Yell away, I agree wholeheartedly with everything you've said.  I think it's really sad reflection on modern players.  Need the story to revolve around them, have harem style being able to hook up with most of the cast regardless of if they are your sibling, underage, or whatever.  Be super powerful, the chosen one.  What it does is make all the rest of the cast in the background and much less important.  Like who in Fates was important besides Corrin?  Maybe Azura cause of her connection to Valle and knowledge of it.  The other royals just pandered to Corrin, and followed whatever he says even though he had the least combat experience of all of them.  I like Fates, but everything wrong with the game can be blamed on Corrin who ruins any potential the story had.  

With Byleth we already have he has a special power, and the only one to be able to talk with this dragon of incredible importance.  He is a teacher and the other major supporting characters seem to be his students.  The set up seems like it could be as bad as Corrin.  Here is the other thing with an avatar character as the main focus/character it is much much harder to write a good in depth story, and so far it seems like IS doesn't have the skill to do this.  This is part of why so many of us didn't want an avatar character at all.  What is wrong with a great story with great characters, without having to insert oneself as the focal point?  Do we really lack that much imagination.  Is it cause people read much less today for leisure, and we have selfies, instagram, and so much to promote narcissism?  

[Book Bro]

3 hours ago, Aiddon said:

I fail to see how Bayleth being important is in any way a bad thing, that's just being a main character, that's how narrative writing has been for literally all of human history. Furthermore, even when the player character took the front seat that didn't mean the other characters suffered as they clearly went through arcs and the Supports also helped flesh them out so they have a lot of personality. This likely won't change with Three Houses and that's fine

The problem isn't that he's the main character, it's that he's billed as "you, the player" and therefore I am the main character, which as we saw with Corrin means no one can criticize him/me unless they're an asshole who has to come around and see the truth of how awesome I am (Takumi) or a villain who has no redeeming traits (all Fates villains). Corrin being front and centre actually did negatively affect the story and characters of Fates, imo. Everyone's motivations had to do with Corrin, the villains had hate-boners for Corrin for no reason, nothing Corrin did (like invading a peaceful country with no motivation as far as the other royals and the army were concerned) was seen as questionable. Hopefully Byleth isn't like this.