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The place of a protagonist in Fire Emblem


NekoKnight
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I, personally, have never had an issue with avatars, at least the concept of one. My issues with Corrin stem mainly from the frankly ridiculous writing around them, but that is not an issue just localized to them alone; Fates itself had that issue. I actually don't really have an issue with Robin as an avatar, because really the only thing customizable about Robin is the appearance and asset/flaw. Otherwise, they felt like largely their own character, albeit kind of passive, which isn't a totally bad thing. Kris is more egregious, but most people dislike how Kris was implemented, so there's no need to really go in depth. 

My hope for Byleth is simply that the writing around them is solid. I don't mind them being important, a focus, or anything of that sort. I just want the writing behind it to be consistent. Also, they could make Byleth important and still make Edelgard, Dmitri, and Claude else fleshed out and relevant as well. They just have to try.  

Edited by Shimmerfang
Fix a few typos
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I don't want to rush to judgment when the game's only had two trailers worth of information out. I will say though that I was immediately feeling pessimistic when they mentioned how "special" Byleth was and how they're supposed to be "you." I'm honestly really tired of avatars, and I wish that IS would have the guts to make one new game without an avatar.

Like how NekoKnight and Thane and others have mentioned, having the story focus on "you" isn't really a good thing for the narrative, especially when the story is obsessed with making "you" feel good, making "you" feel like the hero that does what no one else can do just because "you" were born special and chosen by fate. A protagonist-centric morality does not force a character to grow through their faults and become a better or stronger character. It excuses them and the way they are because "you're special". Also, if they're poorly written, you essentially get a character who is at best an ordinary person or at worst a horrible person who is being praised as this flawless paragon just because the story's all about you.

What I liked about FE was that the series treated warfare with some degree of respect, acknowledged that a ruler or any person in power will need to make very difficult decisions regarding their personal comfort and desires, and the greater good. You can't really get that if your focus in the story shifts from the horrors of war to "look how amazing you are!"

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6 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

and whatever pathogen(s) the Black Death was

Bubonic plague. Isn't it wild that people can still contract it in this day and age? The only difference is that it can be treated now. This is very relevant to Three Houses for reasons.

6 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

That has nothing to do with Ragnell. There is no real reason for it, other than Ike being really really strong, probably the strongest there is (and even if say Caineghis is stronger, he isn't forced into the final battle, Ike is), and Ike is really determined to kill Ashera.

Also, Ashera and Yune are stated in 4-F-3 in the Extended Script that they can't harm each other directly. They needed proxies to funnel their power through, and Ike is Yune's proxy, although I guess anyone else could've worked if they were strong enough. Micaiah for instance. (In RD's remake in 2035, I call for a new final blow cutscene where Ike and Micaiah perform a modified version of Shinra Bansho.)

I see. I seem to recall Ragnell being a blessed weapon was specifically required. Either way, it's arguably more a matter of happenstance that Ike got Ragnel and that he was selected by Yune to do the killing blow. I think it would be comparable to Hector and Eliwood getting Armads and Durandel, respectively, from Athos which lets them slay the Fire Dragon. The game might force those characters to use those weapons but it's not like they were literally the only people who could. Heck, Armads belonged to the guy who founded the western isles so you can't even argue it a legacy thing.

5 hours ago, Aiddon said:

I fail to see how Bayleth being important is in any way a bad thing, that's just being a main character, that's how narrative writing has been for literally all of human history.

This is a gross simplification of storytelling. Do you mean to tell me that Neo from the Matrix and K from Blade Runner 2049 were approaching the main character from the same direction? Some main characters a genuinely inconsequential to their story like Vaan from Final Fantasy XII.

5 hours ago, Aiddon said:

Furthermore, even when the player character took the front seat that didn't mean the other characters suffered as they clearly went through arcs and the Supports also helped flesh them out so they have a lot of personality. This likely won't change with Three Houses and that's fine

Oh, but it can devalue the worth of the supporting cast. What character arc does any of the supporting cast in Fates go through? It's "Corrin sure is great" or "I should have listened to Corrin sooner". The same can be said of Alm where the supporting cast exist to elevate Alm and/or admit they were wrong for doubting him.

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3 hours ago, Lewyn said:

Yell away, I agree wholeheartedly with everything you've said.  I think it's really sad reflection on modern players.  Need the story to revolve around them, have harem style being able to hook up with most of the cast regardless of if they are your sibling, underage, or whatever.  Be super powerful, the chosen one.  What it does is make all the rest of the cast in the background and much less important.  Like who in Fates was important besides Corrin?  Maybe Azura cause of her connection to Valle and knowledge of it.  The other royals just pandered to Corrin, and followed whatever he says even though he had the least combat experience of all of them.  I like Fates, but everything wrong with the game can be blamed on Corrin who ruins any potential the story had.  

With Byleth we already have he has a special power, and the only one to be able to talk with this dragon of incredible importance.  He is a teacher and the other major supporting characters seem to be his students.  The set up seems like it could be as bad as Corrin.  Here is the other thing with an avatar character as the main focus/character it is much much harder to write a good in depth story, and so far it seems like IS doesn't have the skill to do this.  This is part of why so many of us didn't want an avatar character at all.  What is wrong with a great story with great characters, without having to insert oneself as the focal point?  Do we really lack that much imagination.  Is it cause people read much less today for leisure, and we have selfies, instagram, and so much to promote narcissism?  

I can't speak for other people, but I do read lots of novels and I have wildly different preference for literature and games. See if I want imagination on my own and lots of characters interaction, I would just read a novel, or even fanfic. But when I play a game I don't expect to read a tons more and have to imagine in my head when there is visual presentation. Any good in depth story can be found in literature and movies. I play FE for the gameplay and to customize characters, not because I lack imagination, but precisely because I want to fullfil my imagination that I cant get from reading because those don't have avatars or self insert for me to make decisions on. Btw, I'm 22 not sure if that's considered old or young to you. 

I think harem style has always exists since the older days, looks at Genealogy where the first pair up game happens. Like Sigurd has to have a baby Seliph or else the story won't go on. So regard to your question "who in Fates was important besides Corrin?", the same question can be asked for almost everything that has a clear protagonist. If Harry Potter die before he got the letter, the noseless big bad (don't rmb his name) would just killed every one, or if Sigurd didn't fall in love at first sight with Deirdre, the whole second generation would be without Seliph and the usual dragon baddie would wipe them out again. The game even hand you substitutes units for other second generation baby if you didn't bother to pair them up.  Heck, in RD only Ike, the gary sue of FE, can kill the final Goddess. You can just bring Ike and nobody else matter in that final fight because only Ike can kill her. 

The only thing I have against avatar is lack of gay romance but I'm cutting them some slack since they are Japanese developer and gays aren't really their target market.

 

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Actually, after looking at both trailers, there might be a bit of conflict between Byleth and his students; depending on if my theory is right. I'm Pretty sure that Sothis is either a) The Goddess while young, or b) in a Tiki-esque situation. Either way, Sothis is connected to The Goddess and only Byleth can see her. In the first trailer, Edelgard is speaking negatively of the Crests from the Goddess. So...we're likely supposed to be an agent of said goddess and refuse it by fighting her, or we go against certain factions of students based on the House we choose.

Or I could be completely wrong and they're making a cop-out PoR ripoff.

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1 hour ago, NekoKnight said:

Bubonic plague. Isn't it wild that people can still contract it in this day and age? The only difference is that it can be treated now. This is very relevant to Three Houses for reasons.

Well there is still some argument on the topic amongst scholars. Even if Yersinia Pestis is commonly accepted as the usual culprit, often in the three forms of bubonic, pneumonic, and venereal septicemic.

(The exact book I'm presently reading FYI is An Environmental History of Medieval Europe by Richard C. Hoffman. Not bad, I wish I could visualize things more, but I do like the information offered. Although I'm afraid the only thing that will endure long in the mind is the parable of the self-castrating beaver (not scientifically accurate just to say that).)

 

1 hour ago, NekoKnight said:

This is very relevant to Three Houses for reasons.

I wish! This is something FE, and a lot of games claiming a "medieval" setting forget about (and maybe the absence of widespread literacy). Off the top of my head, the only mentioned disease calamities I'm aware of in FE is one in Tellius, and no I don't mean Influaguenardpactariaprosy fever. PoR Chapter 18 has a base conversation where Tanith mentions a plague twenty-one years ago that apparently struck Begnion and nearly obliterated Serenes just before the Massacre, so you see- the Massacre wasn't so bad, people kill people, but diseases kill more. Of course, this exists I perhaps solely to apply a little concealer so as to misdiagnose Influaguenardpactariaprosy fever as something else.

And no, I'm not counting the family disease that killed Hector's parents and brother as an epidemic. That is just in the family.

 

I'd like an FE game to actually have a perfectly natural disease without some magic cureall raging rampantly somewhere, ideally amongst the heroes' forces. Faced with a foe they cannot possibly fight as they would a physical enemy, how would they react? What if it became an epidemic due to being entrenched against X enemy at a given location? Said location is valuable strategically however- do the heroes abandon it to cap the epidemic's growth? Or do they stay where they are because they must fight the physical enemy here and now no matter how many they lose to disease?

-Nope, FE ain't doing this, ever. Although if 3H had an epidemic, I'd expect it to "mono" aka mononucleosis aka the "kissing disease", darned kids need to stop makin' out!

 

1 hour ago, NekoKnight said:

I see. I seem to recall Ragnell being a blessed weapon was specifically required. Either way, it's arguably more a matter of happenstance that Ike got Ragnel and that he was selected by Yune to do the killing blow.

A little reminder, the BK used Ragnell before throwing it to Greil. Only then did he draw Alondite.

And I was going to edit in Ike's exact lines to Ashera, but again I couldn't edit my posts. I'm going to put them here since I happen to like them actually.

Spoiler

Ike:
“We know that we’ve messed up. We’ll do our best to avoid more war and to make peace our highest priority. Ashera, just give us one more chance. All we ask is for one more chance.”

Ashera:
“You expect me to reverse my judgment? What right do you have to make such a request? The goddess of order cannot be so… mercurial. My decision is final.”

Ike:
“So that’s how it’s going to be, huh? Then we will fight…and we will save our people. Make your peace with whatever the gods worship. Your end is near.”

Ashera:
“My end is near? Don’t be absurd. It matters not how man has changed. Nor does it matter that Yune has blessed you with her great power. After all, you are facing the creator of all living beings. Your lives were created by me, and you expect to defeat me? It’s simply not possible.”

Ike:
“In every battle that mattered in my life, I’ve always been the one left standing, no matter how slim my chances. I’ve taken many lives in my battles. This battle means more than any of the others, because it’s for the life of every person that I’ve ever cared about. I will win this fight.  “

 

(Ashera revives herself)

Ike:
“What… What’s going on? This is insane! We defeated her…”

Ashera:
“You defeated nothing. This is nothing at all out of the ordinary. Mortals cannot defeat the divine. It is not possible.”

Micaiah:
“But… We won… General Ike… We have to fight one more time! The people out there need our help!”

Ashera:
“You can try as many times as you like. The result will always be the same. There is no way for you to win.”

Micaiah:
“I can’t believe that! General Ike, you can do it! Forge a new destiny for us! Ike, please… You’ve got to!”

Ike:
“I don’t need encouragement. I’d fight to the end no matter what. Ashera, you can’t stop me. It doesn’t matter if you’re a goddess. It doesn’t matter if I have no way to win. Fighting defines me, and I will not lose.”

Sorry Freddy, Ike did one better than "Pick a god and pray." And Micaiah, why not trust in oneself here? You're not helping the "Ike gets cockstroked by everyone" perception here.

The last line here really drives home the difference between Ike and any other lord. All other lords have some element of being royalty to them and are bound, even Hector and Ephraim, to their royal duties. Ike has no such ties, he isn't concerned with kingship at all. He is a mercenary whose sole purpose is to fight, although he does have familial and amicable bonds he values, they aren't the same as royal obligations (see Part 2 for how they can diverge).

 

1 hour ago, NekoKnight said:

This is a gross simplification of storytelling. Do you mean to tell me that Neo from the Matrix and K from Blade Runner 2049 were approaching the main character from the same direction? Some main characters a genuinely inconsequential to their story like Vaan from Final Fantasy XII.

And for FE, I'd actually argue that for Part 3, Ike is rather inconsequential. If you had the GMs helping the Laguz Alliance in Part 3 but Ike ran off to pursue the BK, so as long as Soren remained open to helping the LA, not much would really change. Sure it'd lack the Ike-Ranulf bromance, but nothing of substance would be lost until maybe the end of 3-10. Ike assists, but doesn't drive P3's plot, that is pretty much everyone else who appears prominently in the Part's plot who does.

 

4 hours ago, Kiran_ said:

Also ... on a weird note, because I'm neither straight or white, it's really hard for me to FEEL like a self-insert in any game where I cant' customize the skin-tone.

And yet Awakening had Panne, Flavia and Basilio and the purplish Gangrel (which is still a nonwhite skin tone). And yet Fates had Rinkah and Niles. And yet Xenoblade Chronicles X let you pick white, tan, black, or pink or whatever else you liked. And yet the international version of the junk known as Pokemon: Battle Revolution back on the Wii had three skin tones and even modded enemy trainers to have the darker skin tones.

FE really needs to get with adding them. This is just another color option. It isn't like we're asking for something pettier such as being able to adjust eyebrow spacing.

Edited by Interdimensional Observer
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While Fates' story suffered from far more than just glorification of the player character, I'll agree that Corrin's nature as an avatar did negatively impact the story in that it restrcited what the writers were willing to do with him. Corrin COULD have had been a more interesting/dynamic character, he COULD have had his actions and methods criticized by his siblings, and he COULD have developed in an actually meaningful way but it's because of his nature of an avatar that none of this happened. Instead of being a naturally written protagonist he ended up as bland as possible so he could relate to everyone who played the game in one way or another and was constantly given praise and understanding regardless of his actions because you wouldn't want to make the player feel bad for something they never did now would you? That doesn't sell cartridges.

It's because of this that I've kind of already decided Byleth to be my least favorite character right off the bat. IntSys (keep in mind when I say "IntSys" what I mean is the writing team, I'm just too lazy to type it all out sorry) simply doesn't know how to properly write a protagonist when they try to have them be an audience stand-in at the same time, Corrin is the perfect example of why. The closest they got to good with this was Robin (whom I have little problems with) but even then Robin would have benefited from not being an avatar because it would allow for more unique characterization and/or development.

I hate to be negative about this, especially since we all want to know more about this game than we currently do, but based on the writing of the last couple games I just don't think they've learned much. It doesn't feel like they have a reason to, especially with how popular avatar characters/player bias seem to be these days to the point where it even leaks into Echoes. The trailer even footage briefly shows Byleth holding what seems to be the legendary weapon of the game despite not being one of the three actual main characters, I just have the feeling that we're going to be seeing the same issues that plagued Corrin's attempt at being a character and I just think that really sucks.

I'm glad avatar units have their fans and all but this kind of player worship just isn't for me and the decision to stick with it just leaves me with a feeling of disappointment and apathy toward whatever narrative the game has in store for us, the same kind that I feel whenever I play a Kingdom Hearts game.

The crossed out bits are personal feelings that are relevant but ramble-ish, feel free to ignore it.

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I love avatars and im happy that it will become a series stapple (Hopefully they make it to the remakes). The thing is that games is the only medium that allows the user to actually be "there" so i always welcome any game that has either a nameable MC or silent one. Now on the player worship i guess they could tone that down to an extent, for instance in Tactics Ogre the MC is an avatar of sorts (He can be named, his stats are base on the card choices you make at the game's beggining, and many dialogue choices that determine his alignment) but based on his actions people will call him on it, hate him, party members will leave and your sister characters perception of you change. In fact there is a particular character who opposes you based on your path and in many endings your MC can die because he will be seen as both a hero or a tyrant. Self insertion is nothing about empathizing with characters, one of the reasons why Persona is so popular is that because with the avatar it lets you think of characters as your friends, your relatives, your lovers,etc rather than the protagonist's which gives a bigger connection with characters. I can empathize with a fellow human being but it wont be on the same level as someone close to me.

A shame that you guys dont like it but maybe with the remakes IS can give you guys something to didy you over (Still would want an avatar though).

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4 hours ago, Book Bro said:

The problem isn't that he's the main character, it's that he's billed as "you, the player" and therefore am the main character, which as we saw with Corrin means no one can criticize him/me unless they're an asshole who has to come around and see the truth of how awesome I am (Takumi) or a villain who has no redeeming traits (all Fates villains). Corrin being front and centre actually did negatively affect the story and characters of Fates, imo. Everyone's motivations had to do with Corrin, the villains had hate-boners for Corrin for no reason, nothing Corrin did (like invading a peaceful country with no motivation as far as the other royals and the army were concerned) was seen as questionable. Hopefully Byleth isn't like this.

Uh, Corrin is criticized all the time, has things they cannot overcome, and makes all sorts of mistakes no matter which path they're on. In Birthright they are literally incapable of beating Xander until Xander gives up due to losing the will to fight. Conquest is almost a deconstruction of a Evil/Renegade path, showing that Corrin was WAY too naive in thinking they could somehow "change things from the inside" (seriously if a nation is in the process of conquering, of COURSE they're going to hire sociopaths who commit war crimes willy-nilly). And even in Revelation there are consequences for their actions, like Yukimura refusing to join them and Takumi's inherent distrust of them leading to Izana giving his life in order to rebuild that trust. They're not presented as infallible.

Edited by Aiddon
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10 minutes ago, Aiddon said:

Uh, Corrin is criticized all the time, has things they cannot overcome, and makes all sorts of mistakes no matter which path they're on. In Birthright they are literally incapable of beating Xander until Xander gives up due to losing the will to fight. Conquest is almost a deconstruction of a Evil/Renegade path, showing that Corrin was WAY too naive in thinking they could somehow "change things from the inside" (seriously if a nation is in the process of conquering, of COURSE they're going to hire sociopaths who commit war crimes willy-nilly). And even in Revelation there are consequences for their actions, like Yukimura refusing to join them and Takumi's inherent distrust of them leading to Izana giving his life in order to rebuild that trust. They're not presented as infallible.

My own views on Corrin haven't budged but I have to say it's nice seeing someone actually try to defend this character with some sort of argument instead of just shouting "ELITIST!1!". Good on ya.

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45 minutes ago, kratoscar2008 said:

the thing is that games is the only medium that allows the user to actually be "there"

I'm okay with this sentiment. It's not how I appreciate games all the time but I recognize that it's not inherently problematic. The problem is IS has a terrible track record of writing good self-inserts. They're usually inoffensive and bland, doing nothing noteworthy as characters which just makes the tidal wave of player worship just that much more grating. My life isn't so unfulfilling that I need the emotional crutch of a video game telling me I'm a flawless individual and that everyone loves me.

In my mind, a good avatar is one who participates in a story but doesn't define the events, because IS will never write them competently.

41 minutes ago, Aiddon said:

Uh, Corrin is criticized all the time, has things they cannot overcome, and makes all sorts of mistakes no matter which path they're on. In Birthright they are literally incapable of beating Xander until Xander gives up due to losing the will to fight. Conquest is almost a deconstruction of a Evil/Renegade path, showing that Corrin was WAY too naive in thinking they could somehow "change things from the inside" (seriously if a nation is in the process of conquering, of COURSE they're going to hire sociopaths who commit war crimes willy-nilly). And even in Revelation there are consequences for their actions, like Yukimura refusing to join them and Takumi's inherent distrust of them leading to Izana giving his life in order to rebuild that trust. They're not presented as infallible.

This is just wrong. Corrin gets criticized by who? Villains who never make valid points? The problem with Corrin is that the first bolded section is true and the second one is absolutely false. In Conquest you make countless bad calls that lead to many people dying, and the game constantly reminds you that nothing is your fault. Everyone who criticizes you is wrong and any self-doubt Corrin has should be ignored because Corrin has a divine purpose. The game (in both Conquest and Birthright) even has an afterlife scene where everyone who Corrin failed says that Corrin isn't at fault. Did you find it curious that Corrin sees Mikoto in the Conquest finale but not Birthright? It's because in Birthright, despite being your beloved dead mother, she doesn't have a reason to absolve you of any guilt. Conquest even ends with Hinoka and Sakura enthusiastically happy to see you despite you being the cause of both of their brothers dying. That people can still miss this despite playing the game to the end, is utterly baffling. 

Edited by NekoKnight
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5 minutes ago, NekoKnight said:

I'm okay with this sentiment. It's not how I appreciate games all the time but I recognize that it's not inherently problematic. The problem is IS has a terrible track record of writing good self-inserts. They're usually inoffensive and bland, doing nothing noteworthy as characters which just makes the tidal wave of player worship just that much more grating. My life isn't so unfulfilling that I need the emotional crutch of a video game telling me I'm a flawless individual and that everyone loves me.

In my mind, a good avatar is one who participates in a story but doesn't define the events, because IS will never write them competently.

 

Honestly what defines what a good player avatar varies from people to people. For instance in Visual Novels the average player avatar is usually a faceless protagonist with no voice acting and gives you choices. To me thats a bad avatar because they have defined names and a personality. In the Persona fanbase you will find people that say they arent good avatars because they cant choose whatever choice they want or that the character had no name they are adressed by and so on. And to me as long as i can name them or i can customize or he/she is silent to me its already good enough.

I firmly believe IS will never get this right for many here and thats okay because for 12 or so games they never needed a player stand in so i dont think this is what this fanbase wants and thus the animosity towards the avatars wont go away.

On the subject of avatar. I have been playing a fangame called Order of the Crimsom Arm and it has an avatar who basically acts as second fiddle to the main "Lord" Algimas. I wonder if the people that had played it consider it a good way to handling avatars (Mostly for those who think that they taking an spotlight in the history is one of the main issues.

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55 minutes ago, NekoKnight said:

My life isn't so unfulfilling that I need the emotional crutch of a video game telling me I'm a flawless individual and that everyone loves me.

I think a more healthy way to look at it is that you may not be the target audience in terms of age(for that aspect of the game in particular, I mean. Not the whole product.). If I had to guess, it's to appeal to early teenagers, who typically have a lot of self-worth issues, as opposed to adults suffering from depression, that would indeed not find much respite in a videogame telling them they're cool repeatedly.

Edited by Cysx
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Just now, Cysx said:

I think a more healthy way to look at it is that you may not be the target audience in terms of age. If I had to guess, it's to appeal to early teenagers, who typically have a lot of self-worth issues, as opposed to adults suffering from depression, that would indeed not find much respite in a videogame telling them they're cool repeatedly.

I know, I shouldn't speak so derisively of those who need the confidence boost. If a video game makes you feel better about yourself, that's great, I just wish it didn't come at the expense of the writing quality. I like to think the series is also for people like me and not just adolescents. A lot of gamers are adults now.

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9 minutes ago, NekoKnight said:

I know, I shouldn't speak so derisively of those who need the confidence boost. If a video game makes you feel better about yourself, that's great, I just wish it didn't come at the expense of the writing quality. I like to think the series is also for people like me and not just adolescents. A lot of gamers are adults now.

It is also for you. That's the difficulty of it, they have to compromise as a result of trying to reach several audiences, and with Fates, they failed(imo).

Going on a bit of a tangent here, but a nice part about teenagers is that they can generally enjoy the same quality standards that already work for adults, as opposed to how it is with children. The main issue, however, is that you don't draw them in the same way at all. I think avatars are in part a consequence of that, because they're easy to advertise.

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1 hour ago, NekoKnight said:

I know, I shouldn't speak so derisively of those who need the confidence boost. If a video game makes you feel better about yourself, that's great, I just wish it didn't come at the expense of the writing quality. I like to think the series is also for people like me and not just adolescents. A lot of gamers are adults now.

The thing is, quality is still a fairly subjective topic especially in literature/movie. You can show your research and famous writer about what is a good story and there will still be people disagreeing with it. Those classic tales like Moby Dick or some other old times English novels out there probably considered as snooze fest for some people. I feel like it's very hard to determine what kind of quality that a game should be based on. At the end of the day, somebody is gonna say the story is bad while some is gonna praise it.  I never thought that Corrin is badly written, at least not any worse than other FE lords like Sigurd or Ike or Roy,

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11 hours ago, MagicCanonBalls said:

The thing is, quality is still a fairly subjective topic especially in literature/movie. You can show your research and famous writer about what is a good story and there will still be people disagreeing with it. Those classic tales like Moby Dick or some other old times English novels out there probably considered as snooze fest for some people. I feel like it's very hard to determine what kind of quality that a game should be based on. At the end of the day, somebody is gonna say the story is bad while some is gonna praise it.  I never thought that Corrin is badly written, at least not any worse than other FE lords like Sigurd or Ike or Roy,

I don't see many people praising Fates story, only people bashing it.  Meanwhile many praise Genealogy story and Path of Radiance/Radiant dawn story.  Sigurd, Ike and Roy are hardly the most amazingly written characters but compared to the garbage that is Corrin they seem like literary genius.

Many criticisms thrown at Fates can be blamed at Corrin.

Incest.  Well without Corrin this doesn't exist

Camilla pandering.  Well without Corrin this doesn't exist, and the only pandering is her armor and being busty.  No one would care.

Characters acting in ways that make no sense.  Well cause the whole narrative has to bend around the flawless god or goddess that is Corrin.

Tons of other stuff I'm sure I'm forgetting that is ruined cause of Corrin.  Hopefully Byleth isn't some flawless person that everyone else in the game worships like a god.

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3 hours ago, Lewyn said:

I don't see many people praising Fates story, only people bashing it.  Meanwhile many praise Genealogy story and Path of Radiance/Radiant dawn story.  Sigurd, Ike and Roy are hardly the most amazingly written characters but compared to the garbage that is Corrin they seem like literary genius.

Many criticisms thrown at Fates can be blamed at Corrin.

Incest.  Well without Corrin this doesn't exist

Camilla pandering.  Well without Corrin this doesn't exist, and the only pandering is her armor and being busty.  No one would care.

Characters acting in ways that make no sense.  Well cause the whole narrative has to bend around the flawless god or goddess that is Corrin.

Tons of other stuff I'm sure I'm forgetting that is ruined cause of Corrin.  Hopefully Byleth isn't some flawless person that everyone else in the game worships like a god.

Don't forget how he's the son of the insane dragon god that's pulling the strings behind everything.

You are literally playing as a Jesus-kun.

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8 hours ago, Lewyn said:

I don't see many people praising Fates story, only people bashing it.  Meanwhile many praise Genealogy story and Path of Radiance/Radiant dawn story.  Sigurd, Ike and Roy are hardly the most amazingly written characters but compared to the garbage that is Corrin they seem like literary genius.

Many criticisms thrown at Fates can be blamed at Corrin.

Incest.  Well without Corrin this doesn't exist

Camilla pandering.  Well without Corrin this doesn't exist, and the only pandering is her armor and being busty.  No one would care.

Characters acting in ways that make no sense.  Well cause the whole narrative has to bend around the flawless god or goddess that is Corrin.

Tons of other stuff I'm sure I'm forgetting that is ruined cause of Corrin.  Hopefully Byleth isn't some flawless person that everyone else in the game worships like a god.

I also don't understand the constant bashing on Corrin. I am still on my second playthrough of BR and Corrin seems like a normal FE lord to me, in campaign and support convo. He gets pointed out about him too easily trusting other people but that's because he only interacted with his maid/retainers/siblings for the better part of his life. Even he himself doubted whether that part of him half way through the game. 

Incest exists since FE4.

PoR has your typical shounen Ike, RD has him being worshiped like some god, even in a game that tried to present multiple sides/faction he still somehow ended up being the hero in the story. From the beginning when he was appointed leader of Greil's mercenary just because he is the son of Greil, or that Black Knight leave him alive, and to the final battle against Ashera, everything points to him being the special chosen one just as much as Corrin is.

But it's fine. I have been in FE community long enough to know that the subjective opinion like this is not a popular one. Don't get me wrong, I still like Genealogy and Thracia and those older titles, and will be sure to play their eventual remake, but I just can't see the appeal of the story or how the story is anything better than fates.

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16 minutes ago, MagicCanonBalls said:

Incest exists since FE4.

Here’s the difference between incest in fe4 and “incest” in fe14. Its presentation. I can’t speak much about FE 4 cause I have yet to play it but as far as I can tell the incest is mostly portrayed as a bad thing and is used more as a major plot and world building point. Without incest, the plot would not happen cause that’s how the events of the game sort of kick off. In fates however it’s presented as nothing more than fetish pandering to all the sick otaku out there who are in to that sort of thing(you know the type). Like the kinds of people who enjoy sh*t like eromanga-sensei unironically. In fates the incest is not necessary to the plot or world and solely exists to pander to a specific fetish. If anything it more so detracts from the game’s story and themes than it adds to them.

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1 minute ago, Ottservia said:

Here’s the difference between incest in fe4 and “incest” in fe14. Its presentation. I can’t speak much about FE 4 cause I have yet to play it but as far as I can tell the incest is mostly portrayed as a bad thing and is used more as a major plot and world building point. Without incest, the plot would not happen cause that’s how the events of the game sort of kick off. In fates however it’s presented as nothing more than fetish pandering to all the sick otaku out there who are in to that sort of thing(you know the type). Like the kinds of people who enjoy sh*t like eromanga-sensei unironically. In fates the incest is not necessary to the plot or world and solely exists to pander to a specific fetish. If anything it detracts from the game’s story and themes than it adds to them.

The incest as major plot is one of the mandatory relationship, but there are other possible incest and cousins marriage as well (some defended that cousins marriage aren't taboo back in those fe4 days in Japan). While both are equally gross, Corrin and all those "siblings" aren't actually blood related (except for Azura, thank goodness I never S-Support her with any royals and Corrin before Revelation). 

I detest incest as much as the next guy, and I think Fates deserves some of its criticism, but only singling out Fates seems bit unfair since you can totally avoid that incest relationship at no cost, just like FE4.

I am not one of those people that just bash older titles without even playing them. I really tried to understand all the praise but just couldn't see how is it much worse than fates story after going through them. Like I can draw out the comparison all day about similarities between Sigurd and Corrin, and the recency bias (in my current BR walkthrough) just makes me like Corrin and rest of fates cast even more.

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5 minutes ago, MagicCanonBalls said:

The incest as major plot is one of the mandatory relationship, but there are other possible incest and cousins marriage as well (some defended that cousins marriage aren't taboo back in those fe4 days in Japan). While both are equally gross, Corrin and all those "siblings" aren't actually blood related (except for Azura, thank goodness I never S-Support her with any royals and Corrin before Revelation). 

I detest incest as much as the next guy, and I think Fates deserves some of its criticism, but only singling out Fates seems bit unfair since you can totally avoid that incest relationship at no cost, just like FE4.

I am not one of those people that just bash older titles without even playing them. I really tried to understand all the praise but just couldn't see how is it much worse than fates story after going through them. Like I can draw out the comparison all day about similarities between Sigurd and Corrin, and the recency bias (in my current BR walkthrough) just makes me like Corrin and rest of fates cast even more.

You’re missing my point. My problem with the sort of pseudo-incest in fates isn’t the fact that it’s incest it’s the fact that it exists SOLELY to fetish pander to the lowest common denominator. I dunno how much you know about modern anime trends/shows or otaku fetishes but I can tell you fates is a prime example of those things. Elise and Sakura calling you “onii-chan” or “nii-sama” all the damn time is about as blatent as you’re gonna get when it comes to this kind of pandering and don’t even get me started on those camilla cutscenes/supports. I don’t really care so much if it’s optional if it’s CONSTANTLY being shoved in my face like this. I can just sort of feel the devs nudging me and whispering “hey see that cute little girl that keeps calling you ‘onii-chan’ yeah you can f*ck that” and that’s kind of annoying.

however at the end of the day that is all my opinion and I will respect yours. I just you are able to see my side of things

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5 hours ago, MagicCanonBalls said:

I also don't understand the constant bashing on Corrin. I am still on my second playthrough of BR and Corrin seems like a normal FE lord to me, in campaign and support convo. He gets pointed out about him too easily trusting other people but that's because he only interacted with his maid/retainers/siblings for the better part of his life. Even he himself doubted whether that part of him half way through the game. 

Have you played the other routes? Most of the flak he gets is from them. You are correct that Birthright is mostly standard fair for Fire Emblem plots.

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1 hour ago, NekoKnight said:

Have you played the other routes? Most of the flak he gets is from them. You are correct that Birthright is mostly standard fair for Fire Emblem plots.

Yeah, I finished all three routes. Honestly, I can understand his viewpoint and action in CQ, it is incredibly stupid and naive, but it is also in-character for them because they are meant to be naive. Yes, the soldier didn't kill anyone sounds unbelievable, but so is Ephraim storming a castle with just about six people or Ike didn't think about using the sword that his dad left behind, or the entire concept of blood pact. 

I didn't join FE community until after I played FEH, by then I had already play through half of the series for years without knowing the opinions of the majority (on the internet anyway) on these games. Heck, Kris was my favorite avatar back when I just started playing and is the reason I continue playing the other games in FE series. After reading tons of analysis afterwards, I am still not convinced that Corrin is any worse than say Sigurd or Hector in terms of writing. But someone told me that before fateswakening, the flak was focus on Roy, Eirika and Micaiah, and then 3ds lords shift those focus away, and those three previous flak-receivers became well-loved, so who knows maybe 10 years from now Corrin will be remembered as the classic FE lord and the golden example of "how a good FE lord should be like".

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