FE4 Fan Special Roundtable/Interview Translation

[omegaxis1]

2 minutes ago, Earth Worm Jim said:

No it is not because it was under false pretenses, Azmur  blessed the marriage based on the pretense that Deirdre was unmarried (she wasn't), that she was his only direct descendant (she wasn't), that Arvis and Deirdre weren't incestuous (that were). Because of that Azmur blessing the marriage is moot,  because if Azmur had the full knowledge he wouldn't have allowed Arvis to marry Deirdre.

If you marry someone under false pretenses depending on what that pretense is (such as that person being your sibling ) that marriage is void. It doesn't matter who blessed the marriage, because they were lied to anyway.

Children born from an incestuous union are considered to be bastard children. Arvis and Deirdre being siblings voids their marriage, it doesn't matter that the king blessed the union because it was under false pretenses. Arvis's feelings for Deirdre don't matter. 

 

The reason why Arvis and Deirdre are shown in a bad light is because they're siblings, Arvis only loves her because he  has an Oedipus complex, Deirdre was brainwashed, she was kidnapped from her happy marriage,  she was torn away from her child,  and they're only together because of an evil cult set out to bringing back their evil god. There's a laundry list of reasons for why they're shown in a negative light. 

You could even make the argument that Arvis never truly loved Deirdre, he was just projecting his love and abandonment issues onto her. Because Arvis "love" was more akin to posession, he didn't put Deirdre's feelings and well being first instead he focused more on himself. 

Even arguing the way how they met is moot because even if you got rid of the Manfroy and his planning then Arvis and Deirdre wouldn't have ended up together anyway because Deirdre would have no reason to have been hidden. And neither would the secret of her existence and relation to Arvis. In fact that'd more likely to be the thing that people would have found out first. Arvis would have been soundly rejected.

Hence why I bring up the scenarios I just presented. The concern for morality goes out the window when they are trying to perform something they feel for the greater good. Arivs and Deirdre's incest is bad because the story made everything about their marriage and the results bad.

But would it be bad if it was the case of two minor Naga bloods? They are half-siblings but fell in love, and their marriage provides with the Major Naga blood and that hero goes to save the world. So is incest bad then?

Or hell, what if Arvis and Deirdre weren't half-siblings at all, but are just coincidentally holders of Minor Loptous Blood. Just as Ayra and Holyn are not siblings, but can marry and have two Major Od Blood holders as a result. You can make Arvis and Deirdre's relationship and feelings for one another in the best possible way, but simply by the case of them inheriting Loptous blood, they produce Major Loptous Blood.

[Tetragrammaton]

5 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Hence why I bring up the scenarios I just presented. The concern for morality goes out the window when they are trying to perform something they feel for the greater good. Arivs and Deirdre's incest is bad because the story made everything about their marriage and the results bad.

But would it be bad if it was the case of two minor Naga bloods? They are half-siblings but fell in love, and their marriage provides with the Major Naga blood and that hero goes to save the world. So is incest bad then?

Or hell, what if Arvis and Deirdre weren't half-siblings at all, but are just coincidentally holders of Minor Loptous Blood. Just as Ayra and Holyn are not siblings, but can marry and have two Major Od Blood holders as a result. You can make Arvis and Deirdre's relationship and feelings for one another in the best possible way, but simply by the case of them inheriting Loptous blood, they produce Major Loptous Blood.

Well, because Julius is just a decoy.

After the war we have 3 minor Loptous survivals, namely Celice, Julia, and Cyas. Sooner or later their grandchildren will join together in marriage, and then we'll have Anti Christ resurface.

People of the whole continent think they win and it is the end when they defeat Julius, but that is just the only beginning.

[omegaxis1]

26 minutes ago, hanhnn said:

Well, because Julius is just a decoy.

After the war we have 3 minor Loptous survivals, namely Celice, Julia, and Cyas. Sooner or later their grandchildren will join together in marriage, and then we'll have Anti Christ resurface.

People of the whole continent think they win and it is the end when they defeat Julius, but that is just the only beginning.

No evidence suggests that Saias has Minor Loptous Blood. Julia and Seliph had no Minor Loptous Blood. 

[X-Naut]

20 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

No evidence suggests that Saias has Minor Loptous Blood. Julia and Seliph had no Minor Loptous Blood. 

It's possible he does. Seliph and Julia having no Loptous blood seems to imply there's a two-blood limit, and in most cases the minor Loptous had the weakest expression of the three bloods present. Part of the reason it didn't get knocked out and was expressed as major in Julius could've been that Saias already had Major Fjalar.

Edited March 12, 2019 by X-Naut

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, X-Naut said:

It's possible he does. Seliph and Julia having no Loptous blood seems to imply there's a two-blood limit, and in most cases the minor Loptous had the weakest expression of the three bloods present. Part of the reason it didn't get knocked out and was expressed as major in Julius could've been that Saias already had Major Fjalar.

It is possible he does, but at the same time, nothing indicates that he does still. In fact, if he did have Loptous Blood, Manfroy wouldn't have tried to kill him. In fact, Saias having Loptous Blood would have allowed Manfroy to keep Saias around just in case things went awry.

[Acacia Sgt]

4 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

It is possible he does, but at the same time, nothing indicates that he does still. In fact, if he did have Loptous Blood, Manfroy wouldn't have tried to kill him. In fact, Saias having Loptous Blood would have allowed Manfroy to keep Saias around just in case things went awry.

Well, it's possible Manfroy never fully knew Saias was Arvis's son. At least, going by Coen's words:

“If you really want to help, then listen to me. Do you remember how my daughter Aida died protecting you from Manfroy? After that, I hid you in an isolated church and withstood Manfroy’s relentless threats. And years later… Your ability was recognized, and you became the court bishop of Velthomer. I was happy that Manfroy wouldn’t be able to touch you in your status. However, with Lord Yurius’ awakening, the Lopto Church’s power is beginning to surpass that of the Empire’s. Cyas…I know you’re aware of the markings of Fala that have appeared on your body. Neither Lord Yurius nor Lady Yuria had them…and that’s what Manfroy is afraid of. Cyas, you must live. You are a holy warrior of Fala…you must pass on the blood of Velthomer. And for now, you must hide that fact and nurture your power…”

Saias's being Arvis's bastard son is something not really known to anyone. Manfroy at best only thinks he might be since neither Julius nor Julia had the Fjalar mark, so it means Arvis had a child before them, and Saias is the most likely candidate due to being Aida's son.

Even if he was fully sure, there's also the matter that Manfroy eventually turned overconfident. In his eyes, the Dark Lord was back, they had the Naga Tome sealed up, and there was no one left to use it. Yes, in-game, Julia having Major Narga was only known quite late:

EDIT: Um, something happened during the posting. It wasn't meant to come out with this formatting. I can't seem to edit it. Sorry for that.

As their conversation at Miletos Castle during Ch10 shows:

 

Manfroy:
“Yes, everything with Yuria went smoothly. She’s being held at Chalphy Castle. She clearly remembers how, when you were children, you left her for dead… As well as her mother warping her outside the castle walls.”

Yurius:
“Hmph… Yeah, Diadora just sort of accepted the idea of being killed by her own son. But she did manage to muster enough power to save Yuria before I could finish her off. Yuria inherited the power of Lord Narga from Deirdre, not I. That’s why we must kill her… while we have the chance.”

Manfroy:
“But the Book of Narga is sealed up at Barhara… I cannot envision Lord Narga somehow residing within the girl, as well.”

Yurius:
“You just don’t get it, do you… The incarnate of Narga flows within the Heim’s royal blood. We must wipe every last one of them from the planet!”

Then, you have this at Dozel Castle in the final chapter:

 

Levin:
“Yet Loputousu’s clan wields the most diabolic power of the entire tribe. King Narga passed his own blood onto the leader of the liberation army, Bishop Heim. That was Narga’s only hope to rival the Loputian power.”

Celice:
“Couldn’t any of the other tribesmen take on Loputousu?”

Levin:
“Doesn’t seem likely. Even with all their power combined, they’d still need Narga’s. Now, Empress Diadora’s children are the only surviving descendants of Heim who would have inherited Narga’s power… But neither you nor Yurius inherited the blood of Narga. But I now know who did. Yurius’ twin sister… Princess Yuria did. She’s the one!”

Celice:
“E, excuse me!?”

Levin:
“The connection kinda threw me at first, too. But, yeah, you’ve got a sister, Celice.”

Celice:
“Yuria’s my sister… Geez, I never would’ve thought…”

Levin:
“This explains her disappearance now, doesn’t it… But, we’ve got to find her. Because we don’t stand a chance against Yurius without her!”

It stands to reason that Manfroy would think that, even if he knew that Arvis's son would have minor Loptyr to serve as backup, since he doesn't think Julius is in any danger, then Arvis's son is only a liability. The mayor Fjalar would need to be extinguished, and the minor Loptyr means there's a chance another mayor carrier can arrise, threatening the Loptyr Empire into a power struggle. Or not even as major, since minor carrier Maera did rebolted aganist his brother, even if with good intentions. So confident Loptyr was safe in Julius, Manfroy would only see Saias as a threat, hunch or confirmed he's Arvis's son as well.

Also, interesting side-note. Neither Seliph nor Lewyn figured out Julius had mayor Naga blood, or just Naga blood at all. Or that apparently Julius had a sister at all. Like, one thing is her being dead (as that's likely the official word), but really, nothing at all about Julia's existence got out? Unless I'm misinterpreting Lewyn's words there.

You know, in light of that, doesn't make Sigurd's inability to realize Dierdre had Mayor Naga that bad now, huh. Or at least, not as fault of Sigurd alone. If Lewyn nor Seliph knew about Julia as well. It's worse with Lewyn, considering he was with Julia much longer than Seliph was, or Sigurd with Dierdre.

Edited March 13, 2019 by Acacia Sgt

[Jotari]

6 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

It is possible he does, but at the same time, nothing indicates that he does still. In fact, if he did have Loptous Blood, Manfroy wouldn't have tried to kill him. In fact, Saias having Loptous Blood would have allowed Manfroy to keep Saias around just in case things went awry.

This is assuming Manfroy has any way of telling whether someone has minor Loptous Blood, which the game is actually rather coy about saying. We know major holy blood individuals have a mark on their body, but as far as I can recall nothing is ever said about how you can tell if people have minor blood. We assume there's no mark on them, but I don't think the game ever actually says that.

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Well, it's possible Manfroy never fully knew Saias was Arvis's son. At least, going by Coen's words:

“If you really want to help, then listen to me. Do you remember how my daughter Aida died protecting you from Manfroy? After that, I hid you in an isolated church and withstood Manfroy’s relentless threats. And years later… Your ability was recognized, and you became the court bishop of Velthomer. I was happy that Manfroy wouldn’t be able to touch you in your status. However, with Lord Yurius’ awakening, the Lopto Church’s power is beginning to surpass that of the Empire’s. Cyas…I know you’re aware of the markings of Fala that have appeared on your body. Neither Lord Yurius nor Lady Yuria had them…and that’s what Manfroy is afraid of. Cyas, you must live. You are a holy warrior of Fala…you must pass on the blood of Velthomer. And for now, you must hide that fact and nurture your power…”

Saias's being Arvis's bastard son is something not really known to anyone. Manfroy at best only thinks he might be since neither Julius nor Julia had the Fjalar mark, so it means Arvis had a child before them, and Saias is the most likely candidate due to being Aida's son.

Even if he was fully sure, there's also the matter that Manfroy eventually turned overconfident. In his eyes, the Dark Lord was back, they had the Naga Tome sealed up, and there was no one left to use it. Yes, in-game, Julia having Major Narga was only known quite late:

EDIT: Um, something happened during the posting. It wasn't meant to come out with this formatting. I can't seem to edit it. Sorry for that.

As their conversation at Miletos Castle during Ch10 shows:

  Hide contents

Manfroy:
“Yes, everything with Yuria went smoothly. She’s being held at Chalphy Castle. She clearly remembers how, when you were children, you left her for dead… As well as her mother warping her outside the castle walls.”

Yurius:
“Hmph… Yeah, Diadora just sort of accepted the idea of being killed by her own son. But she did manage to muster enough power to save Yuria before I could finish her off. Yuria inherited the power of Lord Narga from Deirdre, not I. That’s why we must kill her… while we have the chance.”

Manfroy:
“But the Book of Narga is sealed up at Barhara… I cannot envision Lord Narga somehow residing within the girl, as well.”

Yurius:
“You just don’t get it, do you… The incarnate of Narga flows within the Heim’s royal blood. We must wipe every last one of them from the planet!”

Then, you have this at Dozel Castle in the final chapter:

  Hide contents

Levin:
“Yet Loputousu’s clan wields the most diabolic power of the entire tribe. King Narga passed his own blood onto the leader of the liberation army, Bishop Heim. That was Narga’s only hope to rival the Loputian power.”

Celice:
“Couldn’t any of the other tribesmen take on Loputousu?”

Levin:
“Doesn’t seem likely. Even with all their power combined, they’d still need Narga’s. Now, Empress Diadora’s children are the only surviving descendants of Heim who would have inherited Narga’s power… But neither you nor Yurius inherited the blood of Narga. But I now know who did. Yurius’ twin sister… Princess Yuria did. She’s the one!”

Celice:
“E, excuse me!?”

Levin:
“The connection kinda threw me at first, too. But, yeah, you’ve got a sister, Celice.”

Celice:
“Yuria’s my sister… Geez, I never would’ve thought…”

Levin:
“This explains her disappearance now, doesn’t it… But, we’ve got to find her. Because we don’t stand a chance against Yurius without her!”

It stands to reason that Manfroy would think that, even if he knew that Arvis's son would have minor Loptyr to serve as backup, since he doesn't think Julius is in any danger, then Arvis's son is only a liability. The mayor Fjalar would need to be extinguished, and the minor Loptyr means there's a chance another mayor carrier can arrise, threatening the Loptyr Empire into a power struggle. Or not even as major, since minor carrier Maera did rebolted aganist his brother, even if with good intentions. So confident Loptyr was safe in Julius, Manfroy would only see Saias as a threat, hunch or confirmed he's Arvis's son as well.

Also, interesting side-note. Neither Seliph nor Lewyn figured out Julius had mayor Naga blood, or just Naga blood at all. Or that apparently Julius had a sister at all. Like, one thing is her being dead (as that's likely the official word), but really, nothing at all about Julia's existence got out? Unless I'm misinterpreting Lewyn's words there.

You know, in light of that, doesn't make Sigurd's inability to realize Dierdre had Mayor Naga that bad now, huh. Or at least, not as fault of Sigurd alone. If Lewyn nor Seliph knew about Julia as well. It's worse with Lewyn, considering he was with Julia much longer than Seliph was, or Sigurd with Dierdre.

The weird thing about Manfroy wanting to kill Sais for being major Fala is that there's plenty of other holy blood users working for the empire. Why wasn't Manfroy interested in killing  Faval, Brian or Areone (Julius even goes out of his way to save the latter)?

[omegaxis1]

2 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Well, it's possible Manfroy never fully knew Saias was Arvis's son. At least, going by Coen's words:

“If you really want to help, then listen to me. Do you remember how my daughter Aida died protecting you from Manfroy? After that, I hid you in an isolated church and withstood Manfroy’s relentless threats. And years later… Your ability was recognized, and you became the court bishop of Velthomer. I was happy that Manfroy wouldn’t be able to touch you in your status. However, with Lord Yurius’ awakening, the Lopto Church’s power is beginning to surpass that of the Empire’s. Cyas…I know you’re aware of the markings of Fala that have appeared on your body. Neither Lord Yurius nor Lady Yuria had them…and that’s what Manfroy is afraid of. Cyas, you must live. You are a holy warrior of Fala…you must pass on the blood of Velthomer. And for now, you must hide that fact and nurture your power…”

Saias's being Arvis's bastard son is something not really known to anyone. Manfroy at best only thinks he might be since neither Julius nor Julia had the Fjalar mark, so it means Arvis had a child before them, and Saias is the most likely candidate due to being Aida's son.

Even if he was fully sure, there's also the matter that Manfroy eventually turned overconfident. In his eyes, the Dark Lord was back, they had the Naga Tome sealed up, and there was no one left to use it. Yes, in-game, Julia having Major Narga was only known quite late:

EDIT: Um, something happened during the posting. It wasn't meant to come out with this formatting. I can't seem to edit it. Sorry for that.

As their conversation at Miletos Castle during Ch10 shows:

  Hide contents

Manfroy:
“Yes, everything with Yuria went smoothly. She’s being held at Chalphy Castle. She clearly remembers how, when you were children, you left her for dead… As well as her mother warping her outside the castle walls.”

Yurius:
“Hmph… Yeah, Diadora just sort of accepted the idea of being killed by her own son. But she did manage to muster enough power to save Yuria before I could finish her off. Yuria inherited the power of Lord Narga from Deirdre, not I. That’s why we must kill her… while we have the chance.”

Manfroy:
“But the Book of Narga is sealed up at Barhara… I cannot envision Lord Narga somehow residing within the girl, as well.”

Yurius:
“You just don’t get it, do you… The incarnate of Narga flows within the Heim’s royal blood. We must wipe every last one of them from the planet!”

Then, you have this at Dozel Castle in the final chapter:

  Hide contents

Levin:
“Yet Loputousu’s clan wields the most diabolic power of the entire tribe. King Narga passed his own blood onto the leader of the liberation army, Bishop Heim. That was Narga’s only hope to rival the Loputian power.”

Celice:
“Couldn’t any of the other tribesmen take on Loputousu?”

Levin:
“Doesn’t seem likely. Even with all their power combined, they’d still need Narga’s. Now, Empress Diadora’s children are the only surviving descendants of Heim who would have inherited Narga’s power… But neither you nor Yurius inherited the blood of Narga. But I now know who did. Yurius’ twin sister… Princess Yuria did. She’s the one!”

Celice:
“E, excuse me!?”

Levin:
“The connection kinda threw me at first, too. But, yeah, you’ve got a sister, Celice.”

Celice:
“Yuria’s my sister… Geez, I never would’ve thought…”

Levin:
“This explains her disappearance now, doesn’t it… But, we’ve got to find her. Because we don’t stand a chance against Yurius without her!”

It stands to reason that Manfroy would think that, even if he knew that Arvis's son would have minor Loptyr to serve as backup, since he doesn't think Julius is in any danger, then Arvis's son is only a liability. The mayor Fjalar would need to be extinguished, and the minor Loptyr means there's a chance another mayor carrier can arrise, threatening the Loptyr Empire into a power struggle. Or not even as major, since minor carrier Maera did rebolted aganist his brother, even if with good intentions. So confident Loptyr was safe in Julius, Manfroy would only see Saias as a threat, hunch or confirmed he's Arvis's son as well.

Also, interesting side-note. Neither Seliph nor Lewyn figured out Julius had mayor Naga blood, or just Naga blood at all. Or that apparently Julius had a sister at all. Like, one thing is her being dead (as that's likely the official word), but really, nothing at all about Julia's existence got out? Unless I'm misinterpreting Lewyn's words there.

You know, in light of that, doesn't make Sigurd's inability to realize Dierdre had Mayor Naga that bad now, huh. Or at least, not as fault of Sigurd alone. If Lewyn nor Seliph knew about Julia as well. It's worse with Lewyn, considering he was with Julia much longer than Seliph was, or Sigurd with Dierdre.

11

Why would Manfroy fear the Fjala blood? Compared to the Loptous Blood, Fjala is a pushover. Hell, lorewise, only Naga can defeat Loptous. Fjala blood really wouldn't pose a threat. Hell, since Arvis is their puppet, they practically own Valflame too, so even less of a threat. 

Also, not really. If anything, I think Forseti always knew and played dumb, and was really trying to wait for the right time to reveal it. He's been building Seliph up to figure things out when the need arises. I highly doubt that it was like Sigurd, who couldn't recognize the most important Brand in Jugdral that was on Deirdre's forehead. 

17 minutes ago, Jotari said:

This is assuming Manfroy has any way of telling whether someone has minor Loptous Blood, which the game is actually rather coy about saying. We know major holy blood individuals have a mark on their body, but as far as I can recall nothing is ever said about how you can tell if people have minor blood. We assume there's no mark on them, but I don't think the game ever actually says that.

Nope, no indication on how they find them. Maybe Loptous Sect members have a magical means of sensing Loptous blood.

13 minutes ago, Jotari said:

The weird thing about Manfroy wanting to kill Sais for being major Fala is that there's plenty of other holy blood users working for the empire. Why wasn't Manfroy interested in killing  Faval, Brian or Areone (Julius even goes out of his way to save the latter)?

The only thing I could potentially come up with is a political scandal. Arvis has a bastard son with another, which may very well prevent him from marrying Deirdre.

[Acacia Sgt]

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

The weird thing about Manfroy wanting to kill Sais for being major Fala is that there's plenty of other holy blood users working for the empire. Why wasn't Manfroy interested in killing  Faval, Brian or Areone (Julius even goes out of his way to save the latter)?

Well, if I were to guess, their policy was that if they can't "corrupt" the bloodline by making them subservient to Loptyr instead of Naga, then off with their heads. Or perhaps it's a combination of that and Saias being court bishop of Velthomer. It's not exactly told how much power that holds within the Grannvelian structure, but for a time it was enough for Manfroy not make a move against him. Not to mention, him not exactly being keen of becoming subservient of Loptyr, making him a liability once the cult fully took over the empire.

It's not unlike Faval who is a mercenary over in Manster and takes care of an orphanage. Too lowkey to be a concern, at least until he joined the Liberation Army. Besides, Bloome only recently hired him when he defects anyway, so likely by the time word reached Julius and/or Manfroy, well, too late. Brian is just a duke, but already quite the pawn, aware or not. He never showed any signs to defect, so why kill a subservient pawn? With Areone that was Julius's doing, who doesn't exactly sees eye to eye with Manfroy (the issue about Julia making it quite clear). As I mentioned in another thread, Julius likely bailed out Areone to ensure he still had Holy Weapon user at his side. By the time Thraccia falls, over half are already in the Liberation Army. It's not like Areone was showing signs to join the Liberation Army either, so again, killing him would've been a detriment.

2 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Why would Manfroy fear the Fjala blood? Compared to the Loptous Blood, Fjala is a pushover. Hell, lorewise, only Naga can defeat Loptous. Fjala blood really wouldn't pose a threat. Hell, since Arvis is their puppet, they practically own Valflame too, so even less of a threat. 

Also, not really. If anything, I think Forseti always knew and played dumb, and was really trying to wait for the right time to reveal it. He's been building Seliph up to figure things out when the need arises. I highly doubt that it was like Sigurd, who couldn't recognize the most important Brand in Jugdral that was on Deirdre's forehead. 

Admitedly, it's only Coen's words that Manfroy fears the mayor Fjala. As I stated above, perhaps it's more that Saias can become a liability or thorn. Heck, all things considered, he can become the second coming of Maera, thanks to his minor Loptyr.

It's hard to say if he's really playing dumb on the matter. He certainly witholds things, mostly related to the whole "Is he really Forseti?" thing, but it all depends if Julia's mark is someplace visible. At least, permisible in public. Unless Lewyn could sense it. Though then why Seliph couldn't, since he also carries Naga blood, even if minor. Unless that's not enough. Beats me.

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

This is assuming Manfroy has any way of telling whether someone has minor Loptous Blood, which the game is actually rather coy about saying. We know major holy blood individuals have a mark on their body, but as far as I can recall nothing is ever said about how you can tell if people have minor blood. We assume there's no mark on them, but I don't think the game ever actually says that.

2 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Nope, no indication on how they find them. Maybe Loptous Sect members have a magical means of sensing Loptous blood.

The only thing I could potentially come up with is a political scandal. Arvis has a bastard son with another, which may very well prevent him from marrying Deirdre.

They only need to figure out about Cygun. Once they find she's the current descendant of Maera (not hard to find out since the people of Verdane are quite chatty on the subject, to the bafflement of Sandima's incompetence of finding Dierdre), then it's a matter of knowing who her children are. Arvis being her son is no secret, and they eventually found Dierdre was somewhere in Verdane. Perhaps he could've applied same logic here: If Saias is really Arvis son, then he has minor Loptyr.

That would depend when Manfroy started to want to kill Saias. It could've been after the twins were born, for all we know.

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Why would Manfroy fear the Fjala blood? Compared to the Loptous Blood, Fjala is a pushover. Hell, lorewise, only Naga can defeat Loptous. Fjala blood really wouldn't pose a threat. Hell, since Arvis is their puppet, they practically own Valflame too, so even less of a threat. 

Also, not really. If anything, I think Forseti always knew and played dumb, and was really trying to wait for the right time to reveal it. He's been building Seliph up to figure things out when the need arises. I highly doubt that it was like Sigurd, who couldn't recognize the most important Brand in Jugdral that was on Deirdre's forehead. 

Nope, no indication on how they find them. Maybe Loptous Sect members have a magical means of sensing Loptous blood.

The only thing I could potentially come up with is a political scandal. Arvis has a bastard son with another, which may very well prevent him from marrying Deirdre.

They almost have to really, otherwise their grand plans relying on marry Cigrun's children is based on the very tenuous evidence that this one person carries the blood they need after several centuries of being removed from the rest of society. Then again their cultists so maybe they are just crazy in their dedication. I suppose even if they did fail to ressurect Lopt they still would have built an empire in his image once they succeed in dismantling the kingdoms of Jugdral.

Don't think a bastard would really throw their marriage into question, didn't hurt Victor's marriage to Cigyun. Besides we have a character quoting the reason being because of the Fala blood (not that Cowen necessarily has to be either mind you, it's just the most the game gives us really).

19 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Well, if I were to guess, their policy was that if they can't "corrupt" the bloodline by making them subservient to Loptyr instead of Naga, then off with their heads. Or perhaps it's a combination of that and Saias being court bishop of Velthomer. It's not exactly told how much power that holds within the Grannvelian structure, but for a time it was enough for Manfroy not make a move against him. Not to mention, him not exactly being keen of becoming subservient of Loptyr, making him a liability once the cult fully took over the empire.

It's not unlike Faval who is a mercenary over in Manster and takes care of an orphanage. Too lowkey to be a concern, at least until he joined the Liberation Army. Besides, Bloome only recently hired him when he defects anyway, so likely by the time word reached Julius and/or Manfroy, well, too late. Brian is just a duke, but already quite the pawn, aware or not. He never showed any signs to defect, so why kill a subservient pawn? With Areone that was Julius's doing, who doesn't exactly sees eye to eye with Manfroy (the issue about Julia making it quite clear). As I mentioned in another thread, Julius likely bailed out Areone to ensure he still had Holy Weapon user at his side. By the time Thraccia falls, over half are already in the Liberation Army. It's not like Areone was showing signs to join the Liberation Army either, so again, killing him would've been a detriment.

Admitedly, it's only Coen's words that Manfroy fears the mayor Fjala. As I stated above, perhaps it's more that Saias can become a liability or thorn. Heck, all things considered, he can become the second coming of Maera, thanks to his minor Loptyr.

It's hard to say if he's really playing dumb on the matter. He certainly witholds things, mostly related to the whole "Is he really Forseti?" thing, but it all depends if Julia's mark is someplace visible. At least, permisible in public. Unless Lewyn could sense it. Though then why Seliph couldn't, since he also carries Naga blood, even if minor. Unless that's not enough. Beats me.

They only need to figure out about Cygun. Once they find she's the current descendant of Maera (not hard to find out since the people of Verdane are quite chatty on the subject, to the bafflement of Sandima's incompetence of finding Dierdre), then it's a matter of knowing who her children are. Arvis being her son is no secret, and they eventually found Dierdre was somewhere in Verdane. Perhaps he could've applied same logic here: If Saias is really Arvis son, then he has minor Loptyr.

That would depend when Manfroy started to want to kill Saias. It could've been after the twins were born, for all we know.

Saias fights loyally for the empire for most of the game despite Manfroy making efforts to kill him. There's no reason he shouldnt be considered a pawn any more than the other holy blood users.

[Acacia Sgt]

21 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Saias fights loyally for the empire for most of the game despite Manfroy making efforts to kill him. There's no reason he shouldnt be considered a pawn any more than the other holy blood users.

Being loyal to the Empire isn't the same as being loyal to Julius/Loptyr himself. Not everybody who fought for the Empire did. Saias is shown to not be in support of them. He freed Mareeta from the dark sword, told Ced he would lead the children fleeing from Manster to safety and give the Braggi Sword to Leif. He wasn't really much of a pawn, and by the time Ch23 of Thracia rolls by, he's clearly on the run:

Leaf:
“What are you going to do now, Bishop Cyas?”

Cyas:
“I no longer have a home to return to. However…I have one thing that I must do. I must go to the Tower of Bragi…”

Whether he stays to help Leif a bit longer or departs right away, it's clear the Cult's grip on the Empire had become too powerful for him to remain in Velthomer. He wasn't a pawn, he was becoming dangerous to be around.

Edited March 13, 2019 by Acacia Sgt

[Jotari]

6 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Being loyal to the Empire isn't the same as being loyal to Julius/Loptyr himself. Not everybody who fought for the Empire did. Saias is shown to not be in support of them. He freed Mareeta from the dark sword, told Ced he would lead the children fleeing from Manster to safety and give the Braggi Sword to Leif. He wasn't really much of a pawn, and by the time Ch23 of Thracia rolls by, he's clearly on the run:

Leaf:
“What are you going to do now, Bishop Cyas?”

Cyas:
“I no longer have a home to return to. However…I have one thing that I must do. I must go to the Tower of Bragi…”

Whether he stays to help Leif a bit longer or departs right away, it's clear the Cult's grip on the Empire had become too powerful for him to remain in Velthomer. He wasn't a pawn, he was becoming dangerous to be around.

That's still no different to Brian or any of the other holy blood users who were clearly loyal to the Empire and not the Lopt Sect

[Acacia Sgt]

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

That's still no different to Brian or any of the other holy blood users who were clearly loyal to the Empire and not the Lopt Sect

It is, though. We're never told or shown that Brian undermined the cult's work. Then you have Ishtar, who did, though never discovered. Besides, being Julius's lover and thus the way for the bloodline to continue, she was untouchable anyway.

At the end of the day, killing Saias seems to be more of a Manfroy-only thing, not necessarily the Cult's at large. We don't even know what Julius thought on the matter. Specially when you have stuff like Thracia776's Ch17A, where he's asked to check him during one of his fevers, which could've factor if Julius ever weighed in on the matter.

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

It is, though. We're never told or shown that Brian undermined the cult's work. Then you have Ishtar, who did, though never discovered. Besides, being Julius's lover and thus the way for the bloodline to continue, she was untouchable anyway.

At the end of the day, killing Saias seems to be more of a Manfroy-only thing, not necessarily the Cult's at large. We don't even know what Julius thought on the matter. Specially when you have stuff like Thracia776's Ch17A, where he's asked to check him during one of his fevers, which could've factor if Julius ever weighed in on the matter.

But Sais only ends up undermining the cult long after they attempted to murder him.

Also Sais is asked to tend to Julius by Ishtar who expressly doesn't want the cult to look after him. So that's more an indication of her position and opinion than Julius's.

Edited March 13, 2019 by Jotari

[omegaxis1]

12 hours ago, Jotari said:

Don't think a bastard would really throw their marriage into question, didn't hurt Victor's marriage to Cigyun. Besides we have a character quoting the reason being because of the Fala blood (not that Cowen necessarily has to be either mind you, it's just the most the game gives us really).

 

Marriage with Cigyun, a woman of unknown origins really doesn't compare to marriage to Deirdre, the daughter of Kurth, and therefore a princess of Grannvale. To the public, Arvis is loved and accepted as the Emperor before he became the puppet ruler of Julius and Manfroy. 

Also, we should consider the man Arvis is. He loves Deirdre, but if he learned that he had a son with Aida, it might have made him act in a way that would be bad for Manfroy's plans. Arvis hates his father, and Saias would make Arvis be consumed with guilt that he ended up fathering an illegitimate son just like his father with Azelle. 

[Jotari]

8 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Marriage with Cigyun, a woman of unknown origins really doesn't compare to marriage to Deirdre, the daughter of Kurth, and therefore a princess of Grannvale. To the public, Arvis is loved and accepted as the Emperor before he became the puppet ruler of Julius and Manfroy. 

Also, we should consider the man Arvis is. He loves Deirdre, but if he learned that he had a son with Aida, it might have made him act in a way that would be bad for Manfroy's plans. Arvis hates his father, and Saias would make Arvis be consumed with guilt that he ended up fathering an illegitimate son just like his father with Azelle. 

Considering Aida is Alvis's aid and raised Saias, I find it highly unlikely that he doesn't know about Saias's existence. What Alvis did before the marriage is before the marriage. It has no bearing on the viewed legitimacy of his actual marriage. If he was a woman it'd be a different story because the whole purity of female virginity bull but he aint and nothing suggests they have some kind of inverted pure male virgin requirement for marriage in Jugdral.

[omegaxis1]

9 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Considering Aida is Alvis's aid and raised Saias, I find it highly unlikely that he doesn't know about Saias's existence. What Alvis did before the marriage is before the marriage. It has no bearing on the viewed legitimacy of his actual marriage. If he was a woman it'd be a different story because the whole purity of female virginity bull but he aint and nothing suggests they have some kind of inverted pure male virgin requirement for marriage in Jugdral.

I highly doubt that Arvis ever knew about Saias. Nothing suggests he ever did, nor did he ever make a mention of it. It's highly likely that Aida had kept Saias's birth a secret, but Manfroy found out about it. 

And you honestly think that Arvis would not try to take responsibility for Saias if he had known? This is the man that practically raised Azelle despite how Azelle is the product of his father's infidelity. Hell, Kaga even wrote about Azelle's aftermath and how he had once attempted to talk to Arvis after the Battle of Bellhalla and had he done so, Arvis would have been moved by it, hence why Manfroy took Azelle and had him be petrified. 

Arvis values his family deeply. Saias being his son means he would have an equal effect if Arvis knew. So it stands to reason that Manfroy also viewed Saias as a threat.

[Jotari]

2 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

I highly doubt that Arvis ever knew about Saias. Nothing suggests he ever did, nor did he ever make a mention of it. It's highly likely that Aida had kept Saias's birth a secret, but Manfroy found out about it. 

And you honestly think that Arvis would not try to take responsibility for Saias if he had known? This is the man that practically raised Azelle despite how Azelle is the product of his father's infidelity. Hell, Kaga even wrote about Azelle's aftermath and how he had once attempted to talk to Arvis after the Battle of Bellhalla and had he done so, Arvis would have been moved by it, hence why Manfroy took Azelle and had him be petrified. 

Arvis values his family deeply. Saias being his son means he would have an equal effect if Arvis knew. So it stands to reason that Manfroy also viewed Saias as a threat.

Nothing suggests he didn't either. And considering his closeness with Aida in the years following Saias's birth, it's stretches believe she could have kept his birth a secret from her (or would really have any reason to, because not telling someone they have a kid is a bit of a shitty thing to do). Yes, Alvis values his family, but he is also willing to compromise moral values when he believes it's for the greater good. We see time and time again that Alvis is a hypocrite. The fact that he even slept with Aida in the first place while loathing his father for having affairs (not for fathering bastards) means Alvis isn't as above it all as he likes to present himself. There's also the fact of the strong physical resemblances and the fact that Saias is a public figure as the bishop of Velthomer, who's age matches the approximate time in the past Alvis slept with Aida. Even if she decided to keep it a secret from him (for some reason), he would have been able to figure it out as soon as Saias showed up as an adult, unless he's in as severe denial about it as he is with his mother.

[omegaxis1]

12 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Nothing suggests he didn't either. And considering his closeness with Aida in the years following Saias's birth, it's stretches believe she could have kept his birth a secret from her (or would really have any reason to, because not telling someone they have a kid is a bit of a shitty thing to do). Yes, Alvis values his family, but he is also willing to compromise moral values when he believes it's for the greater good. We see time and time again that Alvis is a hypocrite. The fact that he even slept with Aida in the first place while loathing his father for having affairs (not for fathering bastards) means Alvis isn't as above it all as he likes to present himself. There's also the fact of the strong physical resemblances and the fact that Saias is a public figure as the bishop of Velthomer, who's age matches the approximate time in the past Alvis slept with Aida. Even if she decided to keep it a secret from him (for some reason), he would have been able to figure it out as soon as Saias showed up as an adult, unless he's in as severe denial about it as he is with his mother.

3

That's where you're wrong. First off, Saias is older than Julius and Julia by several years. Meaning that Aida and Arvis had whatever fling they had long before Arvis met Deirdre, meaning that this wasn't by any means an affair or anything that would make Arvis a hypocrite. His father had affairs while he was married. And it is entirely possible that Aida, supporting Arvis's ambitions and dreams, kept the secret of Saias's birth to herself so that it would not intervene. She's clearly someone that supports Arvis a lot, so it is entirely believable that she would prevent even her pregnancy a secret. 

Also, the thing about him being a bishop for Velthomer doesn't mean that he ever had an audience with Arvis. Thracia never even makes indications that Saias ever met with Arvis either. If anything, this only further proves that Saias had no idea of his lineage until his grandfather told him, meaning that Arvis never met with him. And everything in Arvis's character indicates that he isn't one to abandon his family. 

There's more evidence from Kaga's words and the story that would give stronger credence that Arvis had no idea that he had an illegitimate son.

[Acacia Sgt]

You know, consider all this: Saias is 27 in Thracia, making him around 10 when the Massacre of Berhara happened. Arvis himself was nearing or at 30 at that point, making him around 27 at Gen1's beginning. Saias would be near 7. During the middle of Ch2, Filat tells Sigurd the whole course of events surrounding Cygun happened almost 20 years ago. Arvis was 7 when Victor killed himself, Azelle had only been born recently. Azelle's mother died 10 years later, when Arvis was 17, and that was near 10 years ago from the start of Gen1.

Running the numbers game, Saias was born not long after Azelle's mother, the woman Arvis currently held an atachment to at the moment, died. Specially if the "almost 20 years ago" is that: almost 20. Quite likely her death may have drove Arvis to have that one-night stand with Aida? The dates could almost match. Considering Treasure states: From then on, there was no sight of a woman around Alvis. Perhaps that could've helped in not prying too much when Saias was born? I doubt he wouldn't noticed Aida was pregnant... right? Or maybe he actually didn't?

 

Edited March 14, 2019 by Acacia Sgt

[Jotari]

31 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

You know, consider all this: Saias is 27 in Thracia, making him around 10 when the Massacre of Berhara happened. Arvis himself was nearing or at 30 at that point, making him around 27 at Gen1's beginning. Saias would be near 7. During the middle of Ch2, Filat tells Sigurd the whole course of events surrounding Cygun happened almost 20 years ago. Arvis was 7 when Victor killed himself, Azelle had only been born recently. Azelle's mother died 10 years later, when Arvis was 17, and that was near 10 years ago from the start of Gen1.

Running the numbers game, Saias was born not long after Azelle's mother, the woman Arvis currently held an atachment to at the moment, died. Specially if the "almost 20 years ago" is that: almost 20. Quite likely her death may have drove Arvis to have that one-night stand with Aida? The dates could almost match. Considering Treasure states: From then on, there was no sight of a woman around Alvis. Perhaps that could've helped in not prying too much when Saias was born? I doubt he wouldn't noticed Aida was pregnant... right? Or maybe he actually didn't?

 

That's almost certainly unintentional, but it's brilliant.

48 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

That's where you're wrong. First off, Saias is older than Julius and Julia by several years. Meaning that Aida and Arvis had whatever fling they had long before Arvis met Deirdre, meaning that this wasn't by any means an affair or anything that would make Arvis a hypocrite. His father had affairs while he was married. And it is entirely possible that Aida, supporting Arvis's ambitions and dreams, kept the secret of Saias's birth to herself so that it would not intervene. She's clearly someone that supports Arvis a lot, so it is entirely believable that she would prevent even her pregnancy a secret. 

Also, the thing about him being a bishop for Velthomer doesn't mean that he ever had an audience with Arvis. Thracia never even makes indications that Saias ever met with Arvis either. If anything, this only further proves that Saias had no idea of his lineage until his grandfather told him, meaning that Arvis never met with him. And everything in Arvis's character indicates that he isn't one to abandon his family. 

There's more evidence from Kaga's words and the story that would give stronger credence that Arvis had no idea that he had an illegitimate son.

I know Sais was born long before Julius and Julia, that's my entire argument. That what Alvis did before his marriage would have no effect on his marriage with Deirdre. And Aida, if she gives a toss about Alvis as a human being at all, keeping his son from him a secret is not believable to me. It's an incredibly shitty thing to do to someone you supposedly care for. Most likely Alvis did know Saias existed and monetarily supported him, but kept his distance to avoid scandal and comparisons to his father.

Edited March 14, 2019 by Jotari

[omegaxis1]

5 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

You know, consider all this: Saias is 27 in Thracia, making him around 10 when the Massacre of Berhara happened. Arvis himself was nearing or at 30 at that point, making him around 27 at Gen1's beginning. Saias would be near 7. During the middle of Ch2, Filat tells Sigurd the whole course of events surrounding Cygun happened almost 20 years ago. Arvis was 7 when Victor killed himself, Azelle had only been born recently. Azelle's mother died 10 years later, when Arvis was 17, and that was near 10 years ago from the start of Gen1.

Running the numbers game, Saias was born not long after Azelle's mother, the woman Arvis currently held an atachment to at the moment, died. Specially if the "almost 20 years ago" is that: almost 20. Quite likely her death may have drove Arvis to have that one-night stand with Aida? The dates could almost match. Considering Treasure states: From then on, there was no sight of a woman around Alvis. Perhaps that could've helped in not prying too much when Saias was born? I doubt he wouldn't noticed Aida was pregnant... right? Or maybe he actually didn't?

8

 

4 hours ago, Jotari said:

That's almost certainly unintentional, but it's brilliant.

I know Sais was born long before Julius and Julia, that's my entire argument. That what Alvis did before his marriage would have no effect on his marriage with Deirdre. And Aida, if she gives a toss about Alvis as a human being at all, keeping his son from him a secret is not believable to me. It's an incredibly shitty thing to do to someone you supposedly care for. Most likely Alvis did know Saias existed and monetarily supported him, but kept his distance to avoid scandal and comparisons to his father.

It depends on whether Aida had been in Arvis's presence during the time of her pregnancy. The issue here is that we have little to no information about Aida or her past, really. We only know about Arvis, but really nothing about Aida. If anything, it might be completely within Aida's personality to have hidden her pregnancy to prevent Arvis from learning about it. For what reason, it could be anything. Still, Arvis's personality is way too strongly attached to his family. Even if he felt no love toward Aida personally, if he knew that she was pregnant, there's more reason to believe that Arvis was the type to have married her in a way of accepting responsibility rather than just pretend that he had no children before Deirdre.