Skills and Combat Arts

[HappyHawlucha.]

Now that we have confirmation that Combat Arts are back and most likely will coexist with skills in 3H, what are your ideas and thoughts towards this system?

I imagine that skills in the way that they were treated pre-Echoes will be earned by "mastering a class", as shown by Petra's level up screen:

This would mean that there will be a lower number of total skills in the game, but it will be made equal by combat arts.
I also think that each unit will have a skill innate to them when they are recruited, whether this skill is obtainable through another class or specific to them is unknown. Take Bernadetta's combat forecast:

The Tempest-esque icon will most likely be the skill she has innate from the beginning, while her "Lv 1" in Bows and Lances signify her growth in each weapon type, maybe "leveling up" in each weapon unlocks a new combat art? We'll have to wait and see, doesn't mean we can't speculate though!

[Cysx]

The fact that Edelgard has what very much looks like vantage as a noble makes me wonder if we're not going back to way Jugdral/Tellius approached skills. As for class mastery, maybe mastering a class opens up new reclassing exams?

What's for sure is that neither of these two gentlemen seem to start with a skill so it might not be an universal thing:

As for combat arts... maybe that's what the + ranks are about, and maybe just maybe, you can actually choose to skip them and sacrifice getting the art for faster progress? That's just wishful thinking though, because I'd really like that kind of choices.

Overall there's quite a bit of potential here. Probably the part of the game I'm the most eager to learn more about.

 

Edited February 18, 2019 by Cysx

[Ayra]

On 2/18/2019 at 6:33 AM, Cysx said:

What's for sure is that neither of these two gentlemen seem to start with a skill so it might not be an universal thing:

 

Well, not necessarily. It's certainly possible they don't have skills, but they might have out-of-battle skills like rally or swap, stat boosts (ala Awakening / Fates) or skills might simply not trigger in training duels.

What I'm most curious about personally is how Sylvain can't use swords. The teaching interface shows how you can seemingly teach everything to everyone, and the noble class can seemingly use every weapon. We've seen that class change gives a new look (Edelgard's brigand promotion or the red skirt outfit we see her in later); he looks like he has his default outfit though. Promotion also doesn't sound like it'll happen that quickly either: Edelgard's needed a C rank in a weapon for example for a simple brigand class, Petra's D sword is the highest rank we've seen and Sylvain is just level 4.

There's plenty of plausible explanations: Sylvain might be class-changed but in the school students always wear their default outfits, Sylvain is from a different house so they don't follow player rules, Sylvain is not a noble but some other generic base class that can't use swords, etc... But there's none I see as a clear "right" option.

[Cysx]

55 minutes ago, Ayra said:

Well, not necessarily. It's certainly possible they don't have skills, but they might have out-of-battle skills like rally or swap, stat boosts (ala Awakening / Fates) or skills might simply not trigger in training duels.

Yes, that is also possible. But it'd be weird of them to include weapon levels then, considering they do not seem extremely relevant in that situation either. They're also grouped with Bernadetta's skill above her battle forecast.

I don't see those levels as what a student can and cannot use personally, since that would seem a bit redundant when ranks are also in this game(also neither of the three cases where they appeared showed every weapon type, even for Bernadetta who is a confirmed noble)... but it's true that it's unclear what purpose they serve. Maybe they're tied to combat arts, or the weapon triangle. I'm confused as to why the lack of swords specifically is what surprises you here though, since Ferdinand doesn't have levels for fists, bows, etc either.

Edited February 20, 2019 by Cysx

[Enduin]

Wouldn't the most logical reason be that Curved Shot is tied to the Iron Bow Bernadetta is using, the same as it was tied to in SoV, and in the sparring match they're simply using Training Lances which would likely do not have a Combat Art/Weapon Skill associated with them? 

I think that Weapon +Ranks grant access to a weapon's Combat Art makes sense. As does the idea that mastering a Class grants a permanent Skill or Combat Art. 

Somewhat related does anyone think we might see a separation between Class and Level this time around? We see that Petra needs 110 EXP to go from level 2 to 3 which suggests each level requires more EXP than the last. I wonder if there is just a straight level cap and we can freely promote or not without fears of missing levels for not going the full 20 for the class. This would make sense if they expect people to switch up classes more than in the past. So just having a permanent level not tied to your class would be a somewhat reasonable shift. That said between the addition of +Ranks to weapons, the rather slow accumulation of exp for Weapon ranks and the requirements for class promotion it doesn't seem like we'll be advancing classes all that fast, but that doesn't necessarily mean we won't be able to switch around a lot eventually later on.

[Guest LSM]

As an aside: Petra having 100% Crit chance is super weird, and I assume that the developers have forced that for the purpose of making the direct video. Maybe they did the same with Bernadetta, giving her a Combat Art to show off that she normally wouldn't have? (I had the thought that maybe Petra's 100% Crit was, itself, an art, but we see Curved Shot appear over the attacking profile and nothing like that when Petra crits. Perhaps there's some sort of Curse magic in play? I feel like it's just a cheat, though.)

Hmmm... we see that Petra has a long way to go to mastering her class, while being level 2. And Bernadetta is also only level 2, meaning that she'd also be far away from class mastery. You might be on to something with Bernadetta's Curved Shot being innate to her though, as in the first trailer we see that lvl 3 Byleth and Edelgard also have arts already. We also see that while Byleth has the option to choose to use his art (in the same way Bernadetta can, with ZL/ZR able to quickly toggle them), Edelgard cannot. Which matches with her having the passive Vantage, and backs up what Ayra speculates with Ferdinand/Sylvain having passive or out-of-combat arts.

Going back to look at the first trailer, it's also interesting that the Combat Forecast just had the Combat Art symbols up top, whereas in the direct it also shows what weapons they have access to. (I wonder what the "lvl 1" is about. Shouldn't that be "E-Rank" instead? Hmmm...)

[thecrimsonflash]

I certainly hope that this doesn't turn into reclassing: the game, fates and awakening already did that pretty bad, but if we have to deal with units getting overleveled just for the sake of a skill I am certainly not going to be happy.

[Guest LSM]

Well, we see a lvl 2 Petra exp-to-next-level bar go from 110 to 62 with one kill, while her class mastery drops from 40 to 39. So while it's no guarantee that the class will be mastered after 40 kills, if that is how characters learn Combat Arts you shouldn't have to grind through twenty levels to get them.

[HappyHawlucha.]

3 hours ago, Guest LSM said:

Well, we see a lvl 2 Petra exp-to-next-level bar go from 110 to 62 with one kill, while her class mastery drops from 40 to 39. So while it's no guarantee that the class will be mastered after 40 kills, if that is how characters learn Combat Arts you shouldn't have to grind through twenty levels to get them.

It's pretty telling that the class is mastered after 40 points have been earned, whether that means kills in general or just a set value of points per kill/heal(which is more likely I think), as it would be much easier to max out healers if you just need to heal 40 times, and there isn't a kill equivalent that healers can use, as an alternative to gain one point each time it's performed, which makes me think attacking/killing/healing will grant a set value to your class mastery progress each time it's performed, unless reason magic is also offensive and takes the role of light magic too, so healers can just as easily kill. Both routes would probably mean that as you progress the first and second tier classes up from Noble the number of points required for a class to be mastered will increase exponentially, and I'm almost certain that at the end of the class mastery process the unit is earned the skill of that particular class, making room for more combat arts as less skills will be earned through normal gameplay, whereas combat arts are probably earned through levelling up your weapon types as shown with Bernadetta having Lv 1 in both lances and bows, as mentioned above by yours truely.

I imagine that each weapon type will have a total of 5 weapon levels, resulting in about 35 combat arts assuming all the combat arts are tied to weapon levels, but then again it may relate to weapon itself like Echoes due to each art draining durability, so each arts cost will be specifically tailored to the weapon it's tied to.

[Guest Armchair General]

On 02/17/19 at 12:29 PM, HappyHawlucha. said:

Now that we have confirmation that Combat Arts are back and most likely will coexist with skills in 3H, what are your ideas and thoughts towards this system?

I imagine that skills in the way that they were treated pre-Echoes will be earned by "mastering a class", as shown by Petra's level up screen:

This would mean that there will be a lower number of total skills in the game, but it will be made equal by combat arts.
I also think that each unit will have a skill innate to them when they are recruited, whether this skill is obtainable through another class or specific to them is unknown. Take Bernadetta's combat forecast:

The Tempest-esque icon will most likely be the skill she has innate from the beginning, while her "Lv 1" in Bows and Lances signify her growth in each weapon type, maybe "leveling up" in each weapon unlocks a new combat art? We'll have to wait and see, doesn't mean we can't speculate though!

Posting as an Anon because I can't while logged in, for some reason.

So anyways, the first four meters are nothing new to FE. Since they're your character's experience, weapon proficiency, and eligibility for promotion. The infantry thing is kind of new and might be interchangeable (the trailer showed someone on foot surrounded by armored cavalry).

But the Combat Arts are certainly content that needs to be unlocked and that they're tied to specific weapons.

[HappyHawlucha.]

6 minutes ago, Guest Armchair General said:

Posting as an Anon because I can't while logged in, for some reason.

So anyways, the first four meters are nothing new to FE. Since they're your character's experience, weapon proficiency, and eligibility for promotion. The infantry thing is kind of new and might be interchangeable (the trailer showed someone on foot surrounded by armored cavalry).

But the Combat Arts are certainly content that needs to be unlocked and that they're tied to specific weapons.

The experience bar suggests that you can swap between classes when you promote from Noble and the level of the unit will carry over.  

The "next Professor level" thing worries me as it is basically a renamed weapon level system, and why would it be called Professor level if we were getting units after leaving the academy? I guess since Byleth is leading the army and is the professor is makes some sense but still.

Mastering a class will most likely net you the class skill as well as being allowed to promote to the class' 2nd tier. Through the use of a second seal you could probably swap between classes before mastering them but only after mastering them you can promote to second tier. 

I imagine the Battalion level will effect which kinds of battalion a unit can equip, the higher the level the more interesting and powerful the Battalion. Also I think the Battalion you saw in the second trailer was part of a Gambit Boost rather than anything to do with Battalions.

[RexBolt]

2 hours ago, HappyHawlucha. said:

1-The experience bar suggests that you can swap between classes when you promote from Noble and the level of the unit will carry over.  

2-The "next Professor level" thing worries me as it is basically a renamed weapon level system, and why would it be called Professor level if we were getting units after leaving the academy? I guess since Byleth is leading the army and is the professor is makes some sense but still.

3-Mastering a class will most likely net you the class skill as well as being allowed to promote to the class' 2nd tier. Through the use of a second seal you could probably swap between classes before mastering them but only after mastering them you can promote to second tier. 

4-I imagine the Battalion level will effect which kinds of battalion a unit can equip, the higher the level the more interesting and powerful the Battalion. Also I think the Battalion you saw in the second trailer was part of a Gambit Boost rather than anything to do with Battalions.

1- Agree.

2- It's renamed just because now it counts Horses, Flying, Armor and Authority (rally? leadership star?) as one with the weapon exp. I also wouldn't read too deep into what it's named since it may be just a choice of style, with Byçeth being a teacher.

3- Agree. Point that by what the trailer showed with Intermediate seal all the Seals names may be changed.

4- I don't think that's how it works, i think the Gambits/Formations are just Skills/Arts that use your Battalions stats instead of yours. In normal combat i don't think they will even affect the Triangle, just give you bonus in stats. 

[Guest LSM]

5 hours ago, HappyHawlucha. said:

...whereas combat arts are probably earned through levelling up your weapon types as shown with Bernadetta having Lv 1 in both lances and bows, as mentioned above by yours truely.

I don't know how my brain managed to skip past that! That seems right on the money, good call.

[Guest Tilt]

2 hours ago, HappyHawlucha. said:

The "next Professor level" thing worries me as it is basically a renamed weapon level system, and why would it be called Professor level if we were getting units after leaving the academy? I guess since Byleth is leading the army and is the professor is makes some sense but still.

In the Japanese trailer, that part of the experience screen read "次の技能レベルまで" which means something along the lines of "To the next technical skill level". No professors were mentioned. I know they couldn't name it a "Skill Level" for obvious reasons, but I found it a bit strange that they translated it as "Professor Level" since that's associated more strongly with the instructors at the academy than personal study and development.

[HappyHawlucha.]

If anybody is asking why I think that combat arts are earned upon weapon level ups rather than using a specific weapon, the fact that Bernadetta can scroll through her combat arts with ZL/ZR while being able to scroll her weapons independently with L/R suggests that combat arts are not tied to weapon but rather weapon type.

[Armchair General]

35 minutes ago, HappyHawlucha. said:

If anybody is asking why I think that combat arts are earned upon weapon level ups rather than using a specific weapon, the fact that Bernadetta can scroll through her combat arts with ZL/ZR while being able to scroll her weapons independently with L/R suggests that combat arts are not tied to weapon but rather weapon type.

Or that each weapon has at least 2 Arts assigned to it like Echoes did.

But what you said sounds more useful.

[HappyHawlucha.]

34 minutes ago, Armchair General said:

Or that each weapon has at least 2 Arts assigned to it like Echoes did.

But what you said sounds more useful.

Makes it so you can customise the art you want to equip and the weapon you want to use it with, just to mix and match quickly and effectively.

[Armchair General]

As convenient as this sounds, won't it break the game if certain skills are easily transferable?

Like spamming Windsweep against certain bosses?

Edited February 23, 2019 by Armchair General

[HappyHawlucha.]

7 hours ago, Armchair General said:

As convenient as this sounds, won't it break the game if certain skills are easily transferable?

Like spamming Windsweep against certain bosses?

I'm pretty sure that transferable skills won't happen and you need to master a class to get it's skill, meaning to spam Windsweep against certain bosses your unit must have mastered the class which earns you Windsweep. Speaking of: Imma predict some of the skills you will get from mastering the base classes(promoted classes will come later, and yes I do think quite a few Heroes skills will be passed on.)

Myrmidon - Vantage; Mercenary - Close Defence; Soldier - Steady Stance; Brigand - Gamble(this was the skill icon that Bernadetta had); Thief - Locktouch; Mage - Mystic Blow(Magic +5 when initiating); Priest - Live to Serve; Knight - Armoured Boots(cannot be used outside of armour classes) Cavalier - Canto(cannot be outside of cavalry classes); Flier - Guidance(cannot be used outside of Flier classes)