Should I give Effie the boots?

[Hanes]

Effie's stats, except her speed, are great but I don't know wether it's worth it to give her the boots or maybe save them for someone like Beruka for example. Also about that guy that gives you the boots if you kill him., should I kill him or let him live?

[starburst]

If you have two bow users, spare him and grab the Killer Bow and Heal staff. That is your only way to get two Killer Bows before Chapter 21.

If you do not care about the bow, trade him for the Boots. I give them to Azura, but your General might be a good option too.

Then again, I am not crazy about movement. I do not turtle, but I simply do not value movement per se.

[Hanes]

1 hour ago, starburst said:

If you have two bow users, spare him and grab the Killer Bow and Heal staff. That is your only way to get two Killer Bows before Chapter 21.

If you do not care about the bow, trade him for the Boots. I give them to Azura, but your General might be a good option too.

Then again, I am not crazy about movement. I do not turtle, but I simply do not value movement per se.

Oh smart move, Mozu and Niles but I dunno if I will be using Niles long term tbh. Well maybe I should XD

Azura with boots is a very good idea..

I value it somewhat because it's fun to have OP high movement units.

[joshcja]

A+ Mozu if you want more move on Effie.

Boots are best used on your best draco or a pass user.

[Kaze's favourite pillow]

Terrible idea, Effie kinda falls off in the lategame unless you favorite her. Boots should be used on an already mobile units who wants to go even further. Camilla and Wyvern Corrin are the best candidates. 9 mov flier who can double >> 8 move Great Knight who will get doubled by most of the late game enemeis, including mages who will absolute destroy Effie.

8 hours ago, Critical Sniper said:

your General might be a good option too.

Generals are even worse candidates and the class is pretty bad, the only thing you can do with that is to pick Wary Fighter then reclass into GK, a class that ironically gives more defense with Armored Blow.

Azura is a good idea as well, a potential 7 move dancer (with a pair up) can be pretty broken, just not as good as 9 mov Camilla.

[starburst]

1 hour ago, Kaze's favourite pillow said:

Terrible idea, Effie kinda falls off in the lategame unless you favorite her. Boots should be used on an already mobile units who wants to go even further. Camilla and Wyvern Corrin are the best candidates. 9 mov flier who can double >> 8 move Great Knight who will get doubled by most of the late game enemeis, including mages who will absolute destroy Effie.

Well, I answered the question, not rated his party or gameplay. If he is already committed to use Effie, Boots might be useful.

Camilla, Wyvern this, Wyvern that... Even Lunatic goes just fine without them, so...

[Kaze's favourite pillow]

And I answered too, explaining why boots should be given to someone else

23 minutes ago, starburst said:

Camilla, Wyvern this, Wyvern that... Even Lunatic goes just fine without them, so...

So, what? Lunatic goes just fine even with an Odin Solo, that doesn't make the royals or the wyvern line any less good.

[joshcja]

39 minutes ago, Kaze's favourite pillow said:

And I answered too, explaining why boots should be given to someone else

So, what? Lunatic goes just fine even with an Odin Solo, that doesn't make the royals or the wyvern line any less good.

Lunatic isn't always an Odin solo?

Edited February 18, 2019 by joshcja

[starburst]

1 hour ago, Kaze's favourite pillow said:

So, what? Lunatic goes just fine even with an Odin Solo, that doesn't make the royals or the wyvern line any less good.

It actually does. It at least tells you that a certain class is as useful as the needs of the party. In the particular case of a Hero of the Ages solo run, having ten Wyverns is as useless as having ten Villagers.

In the same vein, even after he told you that his Effie had been having good level-ups, you told him that Effie would fall off, that Camilla and Wyvern Corrin (who, somehow, are assumed to be present) were better candidates, and that a General was an even worse option and a terrible class. Yet you do not know the party composition. Who knows, a General Elise with Boots might be exactly what his party needs.
It is more about the party composition, and less about the class.

Speaking of General Elise, joshcja, when are you going to finish that run, mate?

[joshcja]

21 minutes ago, starburst said:

It actually does. It at least tells you that a certain class is as useful as the needs of the party. In the particular case of a Hero of the Ages solo run, having ten Wyverns is as useless as having ten Villagers.

In the same vein, even after he told you that his Effie had been having good level-ups, you told him that Effie would fall off, that Camilla and Wyvern Corrin (who, somehow, are assumed to be present) were better candidates, and that a General was an even worse option and a terrible class. Yet you do not know the party composition. Who knows, a General Elise with Boots might be exactly what his party needs.
It is more about the party composition, and less about the class.

Speaking of General Elise, joshcja, when are you going to finish that run, mate?

It's finished. Can't find the thread because internet is the real final boss.

The rundown in a nutshell is "Percy happened, normal play to ch20, Percy kills 7 dudes with the brave axe and Corncob hits a lobster with a brave lance"

Edited February 18, 2019 by joshcja

[Kaze's favourite pillow]

46 minutes ago, starburst said:

It actually does. It at least tells you that a certain class is as useful as the needs of the party. In the particular case of a Hero of the Ages solo run, having ten Wyverns is as useless as having ten Villagers.

No. No it doesn't. It just tells you that you can beat the game doing a solo with a worse character than the top tier ones. Also are you really comparing 10 high movement units that can fly, use axes and beast killers\horse spirit depending to their promotions to 10 low movement units with an useless skill (underdog) who basically becomes the equivalent of Great\Kinshi Knight but with less movement? There is a huge difference.

52 minutes ago, starburst said:

In the same vein, even after he told you that his Effie had been having good level-ups, you told him that Effie would fall off, that Camilla and Wyvern Corrin (who, somehow, are assumed to be present) were better candidates, and that a General was an even worse option and a terrible class. Yet you do not know the party composition. Who knows, a General Elise with Boots might be exactly what his party needs.
It is more about the party composition, and less about the class.

I don't know Effie's actual stats though, also he said all I needed to know, her speed sucks. And with low speed, that means falling off unless your name is Xander or Leo. Omnyojis are gonna destroy Effie.

But okay, let's pretend he is using Effie as main. General is always a bad option. Less weapon control, 5 movement lock and a meh level 15 skill. Even as Pair Up bot, Great Knight is still better because it gives 1 movement. GK >>> General because it does everything General can do and moves 2 squares more, that's a lot more than you think, therefore a General is not needed at all.

And now let's back on boots topic. The question is, "Should I give Effie the boots?" And I told him that since Effie is likely to fall off, there are better candidates,candidates with better mobility who can fly and cheese chapters like Kaden's fox army, Fuga's wild ride, the eternal stairway and Hinoka's chapter. What's so wrong with that, since I answered his question, giving him advices on what I think would be optimal? You sound so triggered about that, like I've offended you :(

[starburst]

5 minutes ago, Kaze's favourite pillow said:

No. No it doesn't. It just tells you that you can beat the game doing a solo with a worse character than the top tier ones.

Exactly. And because anyone can beat the game without the top tiers is that the party composition is more important than a particular class or a particular unit.
 

6 minutes ago, Kaze's favourite pillow said:

Also are you really comparing 10 high movement units that can fly, use axes and beast killers\horse spirit depending to their promotions to 10 low movement units with an useless skill (underdog) who basically becomes the equivalent of Great\Kinshi Knight but with less movement?

On a solo run, other than the allowed pair-up, the rest of the units are completely irrelevant. So, in such run, ten Wyverns or ten Xanders or ten Villagers are just as useless. That is why I mentioned the importance of the party composition.
All my ten units have roles, sometimes I need a flier, some others I need bows or magic or staves or a rally. What is better? All. Or none. It depends on how effective the unit is for that role.

And nothing personal. It is all cool.
 

59 minutes ago, joshcja said:

It's finished. Can't find the thread because internet is the real final boss.

The rundown in a nutshell is "Percy happened, normal play to ch20, Percy kills 7 dudes with the brave axe and Corncob hits a lobster with a brave lance"

He he. You know that you can read your own messages by checking your activity within your profile, right?
Man, we missed the chronicles of General Elise with a Bolt Axe. I wanted to see how many parts meme and how many parts useful that cocktail was.

[Kaze's favourite pillow]

Imma nitpick but wyvern rider pair up bonuses are better than Villager bonuses (+ skill and luck? Seriously?) and Camilla at base gives Magic, Def, Res and 1 movement, so Wyverns still outshines some classes even in a passive role .3. Why IS always makes that class line so broken is bejond me.

Also why are you bringing up solo class runs where this clearly isn't one? Yeah I talked about an Odin Solo but just to say that if I can win a game with a certain character, it doesn't mean that another character is any less good than what they actually are.

And you would be right about the party composition if General had something to offer that GK can't. GK wins because better movement, better skills and swords (Effie isn't THAT tanky in lategame so she definitely wants a sword to fight against the promoted Onis or Masters of Arms) Other than giving Wary Fighter, I see no reason not to switch into GK. If you don't and give Effie the boots, you just get a 6 movement unit without swords instead of an 8 movement unit with swords.

[ConquestVeteran]

Shura himself sucks as a unit, so you won't be missing out on top much in that department, but you'll feel VERY guilty about killing him, especially after seeing his conversation with the boss in the next chapter. Guilt or boots, your choice.

[Hanes]

Ok so I never said that Effie was leveling up great for me, only that her stats are like that because they generally are. I do agree that a more movement unit that is OP is better than one with less though.

Also I just got Effie and asked because I wanted to know wether it was worth it or not? Bascially, if she was good enough statwise to warrant the boots. 

Also how would a General Elise benefit me in any way? It's a terrible idea to start but "may be exactly what his party needs" is like pretending my pool of units is different from yours which it isn't, everyone gets Odin in chapter 8 so lolwut?

But I'm checking now, Effie doesn't seem to be much more worth it so I may just level her for Chapter 10 and then abandon her, after all, I am not forced to use a unit if I leveled him up once.

[starburst]

56 minutes ago, Kaze's favourite pillow said:

Imma nitpick but wyvern rider pair up bonuses are better than Villager bonuses (+ skill and luck? Seriously?) and Camilla at base gives Magic, Def, Res and 1 movement, so Wyverns still outshines some classes even in a passive role.

But you are still missing the point. On the particular case of a solo run, all units bar the protagonist (and its allowed pair-up) are discarded. It is in that context that I said that having ten Wyverns or ten Villagers or ten Xanders was equally useless.

That is why I have being telling you that the objective and party composition are more decisive than a unit or a class. It all depends on what you need to accomplish. Ever played a non-royals campaign? Who played the roles given to Xander and Camilla? In which classes? How effective were they in those tasks? What other units or classes do you think could perform similarly?
Conquest is more about tasks than optimisation. (And about stacking. I have to mention it or someone will get mad.)

Anyway, I do not want to keep on diverting this thread.

[Hanes]

4 minutes ago, starburst said:

On the particular case of a solo run, all units bar the protagonist (and its allowed pair-up) are discarded. It is in that context that I said that having ten Wyverns or ten Villagers or ten Xanders was equally useless.

Uhm, how does the solo mean anything in this topic?

5 minutes ago, starburst said:

That is why I have being telling you that the objective and party composition are more decisive than a unit or a class. It all depends on what you need to accomplish. Ever played a non-royals campaign? Who played the roles given to Xander and Camilla? In which classes? How effective were they in those tasks? What other units or classes do you think could perform similarly?

But if you have a better class then you can fulfill these tasks better? Additionally would you really go out of your way to train a bad unit like an Archer just so they can make your time easier in one chapter filled with flying units? Like the objective isn't the decisive factor in which units I bring, stats are and 4 mov is a stat, a bad one.

[Kaze's favourite pillow]

7 hours ago, starburst said:

But you are still missing the point. On the particular case of a solo run, all units bar the protagonist (and its allowed pair-up) are discarded. It is in that context that I said that having ten Wyverns or ten Villagers or ten Xanders was equally useless.

Spoiler, Critical Sniper's run isn't a solo

7 hours ago, starburst said:

That is why I have being telling you that the objective and party composition are more decisive than a unit or a class. It all depends on what you need to accomplish. Ever played a non-royals campaign? Who played the roles given to Xander and Camilla? In which classes? How effective were they in those tasks? What other units or classes do you think could perform similarly?

It might shock you but mounted units still takes the cake

Malig Corrin can do everything Camilla does, and when it comes to midgame he\she does does that even better

Beruka eventually turns tanky enough to be a flying Xander, or Silas can be a weaker but faster Xander.

And that's not counting captured units.

Lunatic Nichol's bases are even higher than Camilla's (except for speed and luck, they are still good) and he has maxed weapon ranks. Capturing him is easy since his only ranged weapon is a tome and Niles laughs at that

And in Nichol's chapter, the wyvern lords in Lunatic boasts some Xander-Ish bases, and that's even before chapter 10, making Nichol's friends even better than Xander. Those Wyvern Lords (plus Beruka if you train her) can also do what people uses Effie for: tanking, using beast killers and hammers for effective damage. The only difference is that Effie does that worse because her poor movement and bad skills.

Spoiler

If you are wondering how I managed to capture this guy before chapter 10, I used Niles + Odin attack stance

Edited February 19, 2019 by Kaze's favourite pillow

[joshcja]

7 hours ago, Kaze's favourite pillow said:

Spoiler, Critical Sniper's run isn't a solo

It might shock you but mounted units still takes the cake

Malig Corrin can do everything Camilla does, and when it comes to midgame he\she does does that even better

Beruka eventually turns tanky enough to be a flying Xander, or Silas can be a weaker but faster Xander.

And that's not counting captured units.

Lunatic Nichol's bases are even higher than Camilla's (except for speed and luck, they are still good) and he has maxed weapon ranks. Capturing him is easy since his only ranged weapon is a tome and Niles laughs at that

And in Nichol's chapter, the wyvern lords in Lunatic boasts some Xander-Ish bases, and that's even before chapter 10, making Nichol's friends even better than Xander. Those Wyvern Lords (plus Beruka if you train her) can also do what people uses Effie for: tanking, using beast killers and hammers for effective damage. The only difference is that Effie does that worse because her poor movement and bad skills.

  Hide contents

If you are wondering how I managed to capture this guy before chapter 10, I used Niles + Odin attack stance

To be clear, nobody is claiming Effie is good.

There are absolutely things we can do in CQ with foot units (namely MN, Sorc, and BE) that we cannot do with mounted or Bird based units, and we want to pick up skills which are often on the lower move classes.

Starburst is claiming that there is always an edge case in CQ where doing insane things is the only reasonable thing.

IE: In a limited unit run (draft, pmu, whatever) Mozu!Niles!Effie can rock a kinshi with move+1 and pass. We would absolutely boots her here.

----------------

General!Elise is a bit of insanity where MK!Elise flys onto the magic tile in the ch23 wall and reclasses in-chapter to general off A+ Effie. Fully buffed she still doubles and ORKO's with the bolt axe and has better-than-talisman-Xander bulk. It's a silly but effective way to clear that map. She's low-key best royal.

Edited February 19, 2019 by joshcja

[Kaze's favourite pillow]

1 hour ago, joshcja said:

There are absolutely things we can do in CQ with foot units (namely MN, Sorc, and BE) that we cannot do with mounted or Bird based units, and we want to pick up skills which are often on the lower move classes.

True, those classes gets pretty valuable niches and Master Ninja is filthy. Sadly General is just plain bad, probably the worst promoted class in the game. Its tanking niche isn't unique and other classes does it better, just like I proved

1 hour ago, joshcja said:

Starburst is claiming that there is always an edge case in CQ where doing insane things is the only reasonable thing.

And in this case he is wrong since giving Effie boots won't help as much as giving them to someone else.

The question in this topic isn't related about drafts or pmu, it's implied Critical Sniper is talking about a normal run.

In a normal run, Effie isn't optimal (in fact she is so overrated it physically pains me) and wasting boots on her is a terrible idea, expecially since in CS' case, he stated that Effie's speed is still pretty bad.

[joshcja]

1 hour ago, Kaze's favourite pillow said:

True, those classes gets pretty valuable niches and Master Ninja is filthy. Sadly General is just plain bad, probably the worst promoted class in the game. Its tanking niche isn't unique and other classes does it better, just like I proved

And in this case he is wrong since giving Effie boots won't help as much as giving them to someone else.

The question in this topic isn't related about drafts or pmu, it's implied Critical Sniper is talking about a normal run.

In a normal run, Effie isn't optimal (in fact she is so overrated it physically pains me) and wasting boots on her is a terrible idea, expecially since in CS' case, he stated that Effie's speed is still pretty bad.

Eh. She suffers from the problem that most physical units do. IE finding a niche not owned by Silias, Percy, or Camilia.

That said she does have an exceptionally useful Mozu support to grab +12 stack a bird, a speed stat, and 8 move. With S she can snag another real class or, since she can actually gain a good chunk of exp early, we can go for pass on her without super extra issues making her a decent unit all game with a useable niche.

Her big flaw is 4 move in ch7-9, which is just godawful and is a legitimate reason to drop her on her neck.

Edited February 19, 2019 by joshcja

[starburst]

6 hours ago, Kaze's favourite pillow said:

And in Nichol's chapter, the wyvern lords in Lunatic boasts some Xander-Ish bases, and that's even before chapter 10, making Nichol's friends even better than Xander. Those Wyvern Lords (plus Beruka if you train her) can also do what people uses Effie for: tanking, using beast killers and hammers for effective damage. The only difference is that Effie does that worse because her poor movement and bad skills.

Great. I usually rush and only level-up Sophie, taking Nichols by Turn 7. But since I also play this map around Chapter 11, we should have access to the same captured units.
About Effie, when I use her, she is a Sniper or a Berserker, functioning as a 'physical Delete Button.'

Hey, would you like to share your approach to some sections of chapters in Conquest? It seems that we tackle them in a very different way and I would like to know more about it. (I mean one or two general lines, not turn-by-turn descriptions.) We should probably do it on a new thread, not to hijack this one.

I have been playing Conquest Hard and Lunatic during the last couple of months, mostly with ten units, no royals, no 'backpacks'. Here [1] is such a campaign in Lunatic that a fellow user and I have been doing during the past weeks. And here [2] are some parties that I had tried recently (you can ignore the tables, for they are about critical hits; but the party composition should give you an idea of the gameplay.)

[1] https://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?/topic/86249-anyone-wants-to-play-10-units-only-conquest/
[2] https://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?/topic/85433-on-critical-hits-in-conquest/

[starburst]

It is weird, but my previous message got lost.

 

4 hours ago, joshcja said:

To be clear, nobody is claiming Effie is good.

There are absolutely things we can do in CQ with foot units (namely MN, Sorc, and BE) that we cannot do with mounted or Bird based units, and we want to pick up skills which are often on the lower move classes.

Starburst is claiming that there is always an edge case in CQ where doing insane things is the only reasonable thing.

You saved me words and time, mate.

 

2 hours ago, Kaze's favourite pillow said:

Sadly General is just plain bad, probably the worst promoted class in the game. Its tanking niche isn't unique and other classes does it better, just like I proved

You proved nothing, but only expressed your opinion, which is valid. And as you can read in my other message (which was supposed to appear after this), I value your opinion and would like to discuss more about this, probably on another thread.
 

2 hours ago, Kaze's favourite pillow said:

And in this case he is wrong since giving Effie boots won't help as much as giving them to someone else.

It is not about right or wrong, Conquest goes fine either way; it takes a lot to screw a campaign. And this is the message that I have (unsuccessfully) been trying to transmit. (Most likely my fault; English is not my first language and sometimes I put English words into ideas conceived in German or Spanish, and get lost in translation.)

I thought that the thread creator was committed to Effie, and instead of judging his party or choices (like you did), I simply told him what I would do in his shoes (assess the value of an extra Killer Bow, favour Azura or, lastly, favour Effie.) Not because I though that favouring Effie was optimal, but because Conquest would still go as fine. On any difficulty, burning Boots on Effie is anecdotal to the run as a whole and, I thought, the original creator would keep enjoying the unit that he wanted to use.

After that, you and I started discussing (on different grounds) classes and units. For me, this thread was never about optimisation, given the tone of the first message. But we can talk about it, I even invited you to.

Edited February 19, 2019 by starburst

[Kaze's favourite pillow]

1 hour ago, starburst said:

Hey, would you like to share your approach to some sections of chapters in Conquest? It seems that we tackle them in a very different way and I would like to know more about it. (I mean one or two general lines, not turn-by-turn descriptions.) We should probably do it on a new thread, not to hijack this one.

Great idea

1 hour ago, starburst said:

You proved nothing

I think I did. I explained why General is objectively worse than GK using facts. General is a meme tier class tbh, its role is done so much better by any other bulky and much mobile classes. Hell I'd say that Paladin could tank better due to Aegis or resistance in general (lol) in other FE games. The only game where General is good it's Echoes\Gaiden (Baron is just General with another name) because most classes has 4 movement anyways and the only good cavaliers\paladins are Mathilda, Zeke and a possible Kliff (most people go Sage anyways cause """"canon"""". Meh). Granted I am not saying I am 100% right and you are 100% wrong, but I would like to see facts proving that General is something worth other than Wary Fighter and Pavise (which is redundant)

1 hour ago, starburst said:

I value your opinion and would like to discuss more about this, probably on another thread.
 

Yeh, we should. Maybe we could discuss in pm as well?

1 hour ago, starburst said:

It is not about right or wrong, Conquest goes fine anyway. It takes a lot to screw a campaign. And this is the message that I have (unsuccessfully) been trying to transmit. (I am not blaming you; English is not my first language and sometimes I put English words into ideas conceived in German or Spanish, and get lost in translation.)

You did what you wanted to do just fine. Conquest goes fine with every team, I just gave my thoughts about what I think it's the best way to do things, which is to go for 9 mov instead of 6\8.

(Also I am Italian so I know that feeling)

1 hour ago, starburst said:

I simply told him what I would do

And I simply told him what I would do as well :3

Edited February 19, 2019 by Kaze's favourite pillow

[Hanes]

OK so Effie isn't super tanky but if I want to use it a mobile GK is better because she still tanks as such right? I dunno, I might keep using her after chapter 10 for support fodder to help Mozu with those chapter 11 archers and then leave her I guess.