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More Female Enemies


Emperor Hardin
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Should there be common female bosses and female grunts  

87 members have voted

  1. 1. Your thoughts on enemy female minor commanders

    • Yes, the series needs minor female bosses
      78
    • Yes, but only if they don't have the evil look
      7
    • No, I don't like killing female enemies
      2
  2. 2. Your view on female enemy generic units

    • Yes, the series needs common female generics.
      81
    • No, its extra unnecessary work.
      5
    • No, killing female units make me feel bad.
      1


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9 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

At the very least Pamela played a part in Mahnya's death.

Funny thing I've heard is that its rare, but possible for Mahnya to kill Pamela, in which case her leaderless troops will start attacking the yellow units and Andorey will have a conversation with Pamela's ghost.

True. 

Similar to how in Awakening, it's possible to talk to Vaike in Chapter 3 I believe even if he died. XD

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51 minutes ago, Ertrick36 said:

Well, I don't think the bit about killing of women not being something that happens often is right.  Maybe he's trying to say there aren't many who are killed that deserve it?  But then I wouldn't say that's correct either because there are plenty of evil, horrible women in the world just as there are despicable men.

 

Yeah, perhaps you can ask the translator, SF name Garmmy, about that. 

But I do agree it isn't right exactly. My thoughts go out to anywhere where there is civil war going on- women are certainly dying there. Although in Kaga's favor, I recall hearing Rwanda was left with a major gender imbalance tilted towards females after its genocide. Relatively speaking, men died more than women there.

 

51 minutes ago, Ertrick36 said:

Kaga's position on this sounds like something my gramps would say, which makes it kind of endearing.  Like I get how he feels that way, he must actually have a rather high opinion of the women he's known in his life.  Must've taken a lot for him to come up with such a despicable female villain as Hilda.

Hate to deflate it, but he later says this:

*Regarding my favourite types of female characters
Kaga’s comment: I like strong women, but not just in the romantic sense; I like determined women with a clear goal in mind. For the ‘Fire Emblem’ series, that might include characters like Minerva, Ayra, and Altena…reliable women, basically.
However, even though gentle, graceful characters like Edain may seem delicate, they are in no way weak.
That’s true for every character as well. Although I wrote each character differently to distinguish them from each other, I also wrote them with my own view of women in mind.
I don’t see any appeal in the Kogals you see around in recent times. Although Silvia starts off as that type of person, she gradually changes over the story. As the environment she’s in changes, I wanted her to change along with it as well.

He also states elsewhere in the interview that Brigid grew on him into a personal favorite. Explains Eyvel?

The part about these things called Kogals is questionable. The endnote and the linked Wikipedia page, which has a warning on top about its quality, say it is risque clothing and questionable morality on the part of young adult girls. But also say that the trend might have been an attempt to break with a misogynist fetish in Japan for the pure and innocent girl in a school uniform.

Did Kaga oppose only the attire of the Kogals- he doesn't like erotic garb (Maybe that is why he made Dancers slaves so often? Associating skimpy outfits with bad things happening to girls?)- or did he also oppose whatever you'd call their possible social/cultural statement? The Silvia sounds like he was against their behavior, which isn't exactly the best of things for him to say (and I'm not sure what he means about Silvia changing).

 

 

15 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Similar to how in Awakening, it's possible to talk to Vaike in Chapter 3 I believe even if he died. XD

Although you could argue Mist was taught before Chapter 2 in PoR, when she joins in Chapter 9, she says she had Rhys teach her how to use a Staff. Leaves open the possibility of imagining that Mist was taught by a ghost.

(Also, fair criticism on the Branded told not shown thing. I must admit where admittance is due, even for what I love. Glorious edifice or disheveled ruins, I'll still have feelings for my main childhood FE love.)

Edited by Interdimensional Observer
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Lol, the first poll question is a bit loaded innit. I don't actually think that there particularly needs to be more or fewer female minor bosses than what we usually have, but I have nothing against killing 2D women.

I actually want to see female generics more, though. Seeing more of a mix of male and female generics would be refreshing. If the player army always has a fairly high amount of female soldiers in it, enemy armies could, too.

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3 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

its noticeable minor enemy bosses like Batta and Gromell are always male.

And before anyone states Clarisse or Pheros, those characters are not minor bosses with no story importance like Lumel or Campari are. I'm talking about bosses that just walk into a map and die with no fanfare. 

Catalena, the random Falcon Knight boss, says hi.

Edited by NinjaMonkey
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25 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Did Kaga oppose only the attire of the Kogals- he doesn't like erotic garb (Maybe that is why he made Dancers slaves so often? Associating skimpy outfits with bad things happening to girls?)- or did he also oppose whatever you'd call their possible social/cultural statement? The Silvia sounds like he was against their behavior, which isn't exactly the best of things for him to say (and I'm not sure what he means about Silvia changing).

Ah, of course.  I go about talking about Kaga in a warm and positive light, and then someone brings up Sylvia.  It's always gotta be the stuff about Sylvia.

What a landmine of a character to talk about that he has created.  She's sparked more controversies besides the potential of her being a walking "anti-slut" advertisement.  There's the fact that she's a 14 year old girl who can marry adult men, as well as the possibility that one of those men might be her long lost brother.  And then there's the fact that she's a 14 year old girl who is also very sexually promiscuous, to the point that one of her most notorious quotes is "Yeah, I like it rough!".

Sylvia in general is just a controversial character.  Maybe not as bad as some of the more recent characters like Camilla, Faye, or Tharja, but she definitely stands out.

I will point out that some of the more promiscuous men don't get it particularly easy either.  For example, Homer gets lectured and dragged into a war he wanted little to do with precisely because he flirted with a certain woman (Nanna, who didn't take too kindly to him gallivanting about like a layabout while the rest of the city was fighting to protect their home).  So I think maybe he more just has a thing against that lifestyle, if he even has a thing against Kogals and their lack of attire.  Of course, there's also the fact that Genealogy has the jealousy system which only applies to women, so odds are that he does (or at least did at one point) have some rather regressive ideas of women.

But I still think it's nice that he doesn't like the idea of killing women.  Yes, I think it's perhaps misguided, but it's a sweet notion nonetheless, imo.  His heart was in the right place, at least, and the series he birthed was already more progressive than a lot of other games from Japan by the time he left it.

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43 minutes ago, Ertrick36 said:

There's the fact that she's a 14 year old girl who can marry adult men, as well as the possibility that one of those men might be her long lost brother. 

He actually said the interview she isn't Claud of Edda's sister. There are no incestuous relationships in FE4, save ArvisxDeirdre, which for obvious reasons is very very bad.*

 

*Apparently Japanese law doesn't consider first-cousin marriage incest. Only the first 3 degrees of consanguinity are forbidden. I guess this also applies in Jugdral then.

Also, sorry to bring up Silvia like that, didn't know it'd make you react.

Also, although much of Silvia's promiscuity may have been in the Japanese, if you used the English patch here on SF, I just noticed it has j2e as one of its developers. They are the Loptyr of translations- their retranslation of FFIV is terrible! They might have exaggerated Silvia a little.

Edited by Interdimensional Observer
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I thought female bosses/ enemies are rarely used because of how fragile they are. Most enemy pegasus knight tend to die in one hit, and applies to staff units too. Also making another portrait for unisex classes feels like a lot of effort for little gain. 

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3 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Also, sorry to bring up Silvia like that.

It's fine, don't worry about it.  While she is controversial, she isn't really a hot button topic for me.

That being said, I'm currently doing a playthrough of Genealogy where she's gonna be left unmarried.

27 minutes ago, Jingle Jangle said:

Also making another portrait for unisex classes feels like a lot of effort for little gain. 

That's art in a nutshell; lots of effort for little gain.

My sister once spent days working on, like, a $20 project.  Had to change her commission policy after that.

Anyway, I think you might be overestimating the workload, at least compared to what they already had to do.  Heck, I'd say doing the class sprites for both genders would be more effort, and they already did that on account of Robin.  It's maybe 30 new static portraits compared to the 100+ portraits they already made (including all the different avatar portraits), the CG cutscenes that feature throughout the game, the box and promotional art, the 3D models which also cover both genders for every unisex class, the sprites I mentioned plus the sprites for the unique characters, art for the confession scenes, and all the UI elements and VFX.

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2 hours ago, Jingle Jangle said:

I thought female bosses/ enemies are rarely used because of how fragile they are. Most enemy pegasus knight tend to die in one hit, and applies to staff units too. 

Then why does FE have male staff units as enemies all the time?

2 hours ago, Jingle Jangle said:

I thought female bosses/ enemies are rarely used because of how fragile they are. Most enemy pegasus knight tend to die in one hit, and applies to staff units too. Also making another portrait for unisex classes feels like a lot of effort for little gain. 

Generic_portrait_forrest_fe04.pngGeneric_portrait_mage_fighter_fe04.pngGeneric_portrait_wyvern_rider_fe04.png

Most generic class portraits are extremely ambiguous and indeed all these portraits above are used for female generics in FE4.

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10 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Funfact, a Sonia  lookalike boss was one of the many cut character from TearRing Saga.

In the regular game, there was a slaver NPC who was an old woman similar to Mystery of the Emblem. Just like in Mystery, she wasn't fightable though.

That interview was very helpful, thank you for enlightening me about it.

I guess the current people at Intelligent Systems feel that way even more then Kaga.

Did you honestly not know about it? Because that interview only got translated the day before yesterday. It's like a mega coincidence you'd bring this up now when the topic was specifically addressed only like a day before. 

I notice the previous links were to the translated page itself, here's the link to the Serenes thread talking about the interview. There a lot of interesting stuff in there beyond sexism.

On topic I could do with a few more female bosses/generics. Only a few more though. Like it makes sense that there's not equal parity between the sexes in the military.

Edited by Jotari
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7 hours ago, Ertrick36 said:

That's art in a nutshell; lots of effort for little gain.

My sister once spent days working on, like, a $20 project.  Had to change her commission policy after that.

Anyway, I think you might be overestimating the workload, at least compared to what they already had to do.  Heck, I'd say doing the class sprites for both genders would be more effort, and they already did that on account of Robin.  It's maybe 30 new static portraits compared to the 100+ portraits they already made (including all the different avatar portraits), the CG cutscenes that feature throughout the game, the box and promotional art, the 3D models which also cover both genders for every unisex class, the sprites I mentioned plus the sprites for the unique characters, art for the confession scenes, and all the UI elements and VFX.

I mean in the sense after drawing another 25+ portraits then the designers have to put them common as enemies units. Sure the Awakening Swordmaster has a class portrait for both genders but how many times you remember the female one appearing in a map?

7 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Then why does FE have male staff units as enemies all the time?

Generic_portrait_forrest_fe04.pngGeneric_portrait_mage_fighter_fe04.pngGeneric_portrait_wyvern_rider_fe04.png

Most generic class portraits are extremely ambiguous and indeed all these portraits above are used for female generics in FE4.

Not all the time, there are enemy valkyries, and maids. I was referring to the modern games

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13 hours ago, Critical Sniper said:

Maybe ugly looking bandit women no, but mini bosses that are female, like ok? Why not?

But why not ugly-looking bandit women? I don't really see an issue with portraying a barbaric, ugly chick who slaughters others for a living.

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7 hours ago, Kaze's favourite pillow said:

There is that blue haired pegasus knight in FE6, Daniela (Birthright) and Cancade (Midori's paralouge)

Two of which you can recruit though so they're at least significant in that regard.

The one that comes to mine for me is Catalena in Radiant Dawn.

Edited by Vince777
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4 minutes ago, Vince777 said:

Two of which you can recruit though so they're at least significant in that regard.

The one that come to mine for me is Catalena in Radiant Dawn.

Yeah, but not as proper characters. You can recruit almost any enemy in Fates.

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2 minutes ago, Vince777 said:

Only a select few amongst the bosses though.

 

Yeah, all the ones that aren't plot relevant. Which is exactly what we're talking about. If we're including plot relevant characters then we'd be talking about Arete and Mikoto.

Edited by Jotari
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1 minute ago, Vince777 said:

Gotcha.

There seems to be at least one exception to that though:

https://fireemblem.fandom.com/wiki/Omozu

Poor guy. I would recruit anyone with it's own non-generic face if I could.


 

It's no doubt because you fight him before you have an ally with the capture command.

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I'm fine with the series having generic female opponents. I always wondered when playing Awakening why they bothered to make female models for a good chunk of the classes yet only had about 3 or 4 female enemies in the game that weren't Pegasus knights. It seems like a waste of resources, honestly.

Heck, I actually remember that one of the first topics I made after I joined SF was cosmetic ideas for Three Houses (before the game even had a name), where I suggested having a ratio of male to female enemies that differed depending on which faction you were facing. It would been a way of hinting if a nation was egalitarian, allowed women to fight and were either okay or reluctant to do so, or if they were against the idea of women fighting and only allowed the typical female-only classes in battle.

As for bosses, I'm okay with fighting female leaders. It could be a good "show, don't tell" of how the societies of the world treat gender. As long as they don't contradict themselves in worldbuilding (such as having an extremely patriarchal nation have more than a few female generals), it should be an easy yet substantial change.

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So upon reading this interview in regards to Genealogy, this is what I have to say about it:

Quote

1) OH GOD! SOMEONE ACTUALLY VOICED MY COMPLAINT ABOUT SIGURD AND DEIRDRE'S ROMANCE! In the end, Kaga had intended there to have been more, but in the end, it was love at first sight, and Sigurd was more thinking with his Tyrfing than anything. But I am amused by how Kaga says that Sigurd is apparently incompetent, even moreso than Seliph. XD

2) Confirmation that Sigurd DID, in fact, have a small army when he went invading the other nations.

3) So wait, is Kaga saying that Arvis is the person with the least amount of flaws, based on the case that Sigurd is flawed, but Arvis apparently isn't? Pretty sure he's majorly flawed by all accounts.

4) Kaga, you can say that the theme is about questioning persecution, but if you cannot even show us the persecution, but only tell us, then you really aren't delivering that theme well enough. Also, how would Arvis of all people face persecution? He became the head of the Velthomer house when he was a kid, and was very fearsome, and was even supported in secret by Kurth. How would he face persecution like Manfroy's? That's BS. And how exactly did Arvis "use" Deirdre to get an advantage over Sigurd? What, show her off to him? I thought that was to check if Sigurd knew Deirdre? Contradiction?

5) So is Kaga basically confirming that Falchion and Book of Naga are equal to one another?

6) Kaga, again with the Lewyn thing? You first stated that it's complicated and that it's Lewyn, yet not Lewyn, then you talk about the geas, and now this? Geez. Maybe the lack of definite answer is that you keep giving different ones just to confuse us.

7) I think we now have confirmation that Kaga approves of Awakening for their fun characters and the existence of Noire, a character Kaga wished he could make.

 

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16 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

5) So is Kaga basically confirming that Falchion and Book of Naga are equal to one another?

 

First, there is a dedicated topic for this, just so we don't deride this one.

Second, Falchion and the Book of Naga I don't think he is saying are equally powerful in lore. What he is saying is they serve the same role in gameplay- killing the final boss easily.

Third, yeah, Kaga is the founder of the Adamantly Adoring Arvis Absolutely Association, and the real father of Arvis himself of course. You could put him to the stake for that, although I'm sure he likes fire.:^_^: I gotta admit Arvis being threatened with persecution makes little sense, people in the upper crust can get away with stigmas lower classes can not. Jerusalem during the Crusades had a Christian king who had leprosy- which was societal anathema to all but the saintly. And Arvis had no Loptyr Brand, nor was he able to tell his son's Brand was Loptyr's and not Fjalar's I guess.

Fourth, I think he wants to leave some things closed, like Claud and Silvia's relation to each other, what Arvis is in the narrative (as much as you may, not without reason, disagree with him), but leave other things open, like Forseti-Lewyn. Some definitive narrative answers, some things remain for fan speculation and creativity. Not a bad idea I think.

Edited by Interdimensional Observer
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