March 2019 Legendary Banner Expectations

[Mercakete]

@omegaxis1

Don't worry; I follow you. It's not about having "all" powers, but rather "the clearly-stated powers that tier 1 and tier 2 beings can do." Using the RD class advancement system as a comparison, a swordmaster can do anything a myrm can do, but better. Likewise, a godlike being can do anything a mortal can do, but better. Further, a god can do anything a godlike being can do, but better. That is, limitations such as time, space, and aging affect the person in question less the higher his/her tier, not to mention inborn abilities. Now, the RD goddess made Tellius, but maybe didn't make the worlds of other FE games. I could see that being an understandable argument. There, I would accept "okay, but she's not comparable to this other being because someone else made that world." There, using the same illustration, it would be like comparing a swordmaster to a sage. They're built differently, even if they're the same tier. Sure; cool. But when you look at people who are actually pieces of her, then she should really be able to do everything they can do, but better. If you are the origin of all magic, then all magic is at your disposal. Nothing else makes any sense. If you can create life, then if someone dies, then you're able to recreate them and insert whatever that person needs to know.

So yeah, I get you, and even agree with you. I think there's a more important misunderstanding that went down, though.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you were just stating what makes sense to you, and your own preferences, using what Anacybele said as a jumping-off point. However, it looked like she took what you said as criticism of her own opinion, rather than just an opposing view. I think she was thinking that you were calling her opinion invalid, but I don't think that was your intent. Rather, I think both of you are really trying to not only explain just what your distinct views are, but also saying "my opinion is valid, too." If I'm wrong in this, feel free to say so, but I think cooler heads are easier to gain if misunderstandings that lead to hurt feelings are settled first.

[omegaxis1]

15 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

She clearly has no influence over the realm of the dead and cannot call back the souls of the dead to return them to their bodies. This is a common theme in polytheistic religions where those in the realm of the living have no power over the realm of the dead.

 

 

12 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

Yeah, exactly. Saying Ashunera should have power over the dead is like saying Zeus should have as well despite that Hades, his brother, already is the god of the dead. Gods are typically a god over one or two things, not a lot of things. Hades is the god of the dead. Hel is his FE equivalent. They have power over the dead.

Poseidon is the god of the sea, so he has powers over water.

Thor is the god of thunder, so he has thunder powers and that hammer of his.

And so on. Ashunera is the goddess who created the Tellius world, equivalent to gods like the Zelda ones who created their world. They can't revive the dead either.

That's... not the best form of logic to go by. First off, Ashera is one half of Ashunera, not the complete form. But Ashunera is incapable of reviving the dead? And the talk about Hel, the god of the dead, makes no sound argument when Fire Emblem has already depicted godlike entities, such as Mila and Grima, to be able to revive the dead. Mila even more so. They aren't true gods, yet they can revive the dead. There are even staves that can revive the dead. 

To say that Ashunera cannot revive the dead because it is not in her domain makes no sense when non-gods can do that already. 

15 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

You assume she is omnipotent without it ever being mentioned that she is omnipotent, and this assumption is being made because you see that she has a lot of strong powers. However, "having a lot of strong powers" does not logically imply "having all powers".

It's not a case of having a lot of/all powers. It's a matter of how it feels inconsistent. Now, though it sounds like I am saying that she oughta be omnipotent, which I really am not, I am saying that she should not be incapable of doing things or performing feats that other godlike entities have been able to. 

Actually, what @Mercakete said is what I'm trying to say. The case is that if a godlike entity can do it, a god like Ashunera should be able to as well, if not even better.

4 minutes ago, Mercakete said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you were just stating what makes sense to you, and your own preferences, using what Anacybele said as a jumping-off point. However, it looked like she took what you said as criticism of her own opinion, rather than just an opposing view. I think she was thinking that you were calling her opinion invalid, but I don't think that was your intent. Rather, I think both of you are really trying to not only explain just what your distinct views are, but also saying "my opinion is valid, too." If I'm wrong in this, feel free to say so, but I think cooler heads are easier to gain if misunderstandings that lead to hurt feelings are settled first.

2

Is that how it sounded? I didn't know I was giving that impression. 

But you are right at the last bit. I was actually trying to explain my opinion over god vs nongods, not invalidate hers. 

@Anacybele Perhaps how I was explaining and the flow of the conversation was where it got confusing. If so, I'm sorry about that.

[Anacybele]

Yeah, what Mercakete said, I felt like you were saying my desire to summon the Tellius goddesses was wrong or improper or something. If this wasn't your intention, then my bad for misunderstanding.

[omegaxis1]

6 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

Yeah, what Mercakete said, I felt like you were saying my desire to summon the Tellius goddesses was wrong or improper or something. If this wasn't your intention, then my bad for misunderstanding.

My bad too for not explaining myself. To relate to the Mythic banner, don't you think its a bit odd, if not ludicrous, that a literal goddess like Ashunera/Ashera/Yune, is capable of being summoned, bound, and controlled by the power of the Breidablik, a weapon of Askr? The divine power is from a dragon, basically a godlike entity, not a true god. 

So basically, if Ashunera/Ashera/Yune is summoned, it means that a godlike dragon > literal goddess.

[Ice Dragon]

33 minutes ago, Mercakete said:

Further, a god can do anything a godlike being can do, but better.

That logic would work if all "gods" "promoted" from "god-like beings", but you fail to consider the fact that maybe there are alternate "promotion trees". For example, a Swordmaster might be a better Myrmidon, but that doesn't automatically make them a better Archer.

 

26 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

That's... not the best form of logic to go by. First off, Ashera is one half of Ashunera, not the complete form. But Ashunera is incapable of reviving the dead? And the talk about Hel, the god of the dead, makes no sound argument when Fire Emblem has already depicted godlike entities, such as Mila and Grima, to be able to revive the dead. Mila even more so. They aren't true gods, yet they can revive the dead. There are even staves that can revive the dead. 

To say that Ashunera cannot revive the dead because it is not in her domain makes no sense when non-gods can do that already. 

Most attempts at reviving the dead in mythology involve striking a deal with the ruler of the realm of the dead. As such, it cannot be done often, if at all, and may require special circumstances.

One can also therefore theorize that items with the power to revive the dead effectively have a pre-approved contract to request a soul back from the dead.

Edited March 7, 2019 by Ice Dragon

[Anacybele]

7 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

My bad too for not explaining myself. To relate to the Mythic banner, don't you think its a bit odd, if not ludicrous, that a literal goddess like Ashunera/Ashera/Yune, is capable of being summoned, bound, and controlled by the power of the Breidablik, a weapon of Askr? The divine power is from a dragon, basically a godlike entity, not a true god. 

So basically, if Ashunera/Ashera/Yune is summoned, it means that a godlike dragon > literal goddess.

A little, maybe, but at the same time, we don't know exactly how the Askr dragon created Breidablik. It could have involved some assistance from other worldly power.

[omegaxis1]

12 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Most attempts at reviving the dead in mythology involve striking a deal with the ruler of the realm of the dead. As such, it cannot be done often, if at all, and may require special circumstances.

One can also therefore theorize that items with the power to revive the dead effectively have a pre-approved contract to request a soul back from the dead.

That generally isn't how revival worked in FE, though. Back in Kaga games in Jugdral, revival is the case where quintessence is referred to as a force of fate, where people that are destined to die cannot be revived by items like Valkyrie Staff, but if they die when they aren't destined to, they can be revived. But it is possible for a dragon to intervene with that fate as Forseti revived Lewyn despite how he was always destined to die at the Battle of Belhalla. 

In the Elibe series, Brimmimond was able to revive Ninian after she was killed by the Durandal.

Mila goes above and beyond in her ability to revive people, as though there are limits, she has the smallest limits in that she can revive many people. Even the revival springs across Valentia only dries out because Mila had been sealed at that point, so her power in the springs are gone. 

So the idea that Ashunera, for all her divine power, to be a true god, to be incapable of reviving a single one of her victims from the Great Flood feels rather poor.

13 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

A little, maybe, but at the same time, we don't know exactly how the Askr dragon created Breidablik. It could have involved some assistance from other worldly power.

Fair point, but as it stands, seems like the Askr may very well be the most powerful entity in Fire Emblem.

[Ice Dragon]

4 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

So the idea that Ashunera, for all her divine power, to be a true god, to be incapable of reviving a single one of her victims from the Great Flood feels rather poor.

All those mentions of revival you just mention deal with dragon gods or quintessence. You know what Tellius lacks? Dragon gods and the ability to manipulate quintessence.

I don't see why the simple explanation that "resurrecting the dead is outside of Ashunera's jurisdiction" is not a sufficient reason why Ashunera cannot resurrect the dead. Ashunera is not a Supreme Being, and there is no logical reason Ashunera necessarily must have the power to resurrect the dead that the dragon gods presumably have. Hades can resurrect the dead. Zeus cannot. Simple as that.

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Ice Dragon said:

All those mentions of revival you just mention deal with dragon gods or quintessence. You know what Tellius lacks? Dragon gods and the ability to manipulate quintessence.

I don't see why the simple explanation that "resurrecting the dead is outside of Ashunera's jurisdiction" is not a sufficient reason why Ashunera cannot resurrect the dead. Ashunera is not a Supreme Being, and there is no logical reason Ashunera necessarily must have the power to resurrect the dead that the dragon gods presumably have. Hades can resurrect the dead. Zeus cannot. Simple as that.

Quintessence in the case of revival also functions in the case of being able to create life, as Nergal created Morphs using quintessence.

Meaning, quintessence = life.

Ashunera is able to create life from nothing. So the principle functions the same way.

[Ice Dragon]

Just now, omegaxis1 said:

Quintessence in the case of revival also functions in the case of being able to create life, as Nergal created Morphs using quintessence.

Meaning, quintessence = life.

Ashunera is able to create life from nothing. So the principle functions the same way.

We have no confirmation that the manipulation of quintessence is necessary for the creation of non-human, non-dragon life. Perhaps less intelligent life can absorb enough quintessence from the environment to sustain itself, but human-level and higher life requires more precise molding of quintessence, the latter of which we do see in Nergal's research. Much is left to mystery, and we cannot assume how the world works beyond what we're told.

We know that Ashunera did not create the Beorc or the Laguz; rather, she created their precursors and let them evolve into the modern-day Beorc and Laguz.

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Ice Dragon said:

We have no confirmation that the manipulation of quintessence is necessary for the creation of non-human, non-dragon life. Perhaps less intelligent life can absorb enough quintessence from the environment to sustain itself, but human-level and higher life requires more precise molding of quintessence, the latter of which we do see in Nergal's research. Much is left to mystery, and we cannot assume how the world works beyond what we're told.

We know that Ashunera did not create the Beorc or the Laguz; rather, she created their precursors and let them evolve into the modern-day Beorc and Laguz.

No, what I mean is that Nergal creates life and Ninian is revived on the principle of quintessence being life energy or such. 

Ashunera thought didn't even create life from the principle of quintessence. Rather, she created it from absolutely nothing. At least from what we know. That is basically following a much greater feat than the quintessence case. 

[Ice Dragon]

2 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Ashunera thought didn't even create life from the principle of quintessence. Rather, she created it from absolutely nothing. At least from what we know. That is basically following a much greater feat than the quintessence case. 

Based on the fact that, as far as I can tell, the people of Tellius have no idea what quintessence is or that it exists at all (correct me if I'm wrong) making life out of quintessence would look identical to making life out of nothing.

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Ice Dragon said:

Based on the fact that, as far as I can tell, the people of Tellius have no idea what quintessence is or that it exists at all (correct me if I'm wrong) making life out of quintessence would look identical to making life out of nothing.

It isn't like quintessence gets mentioned that much. Quintessence got casually mentioned one time in Genealogy and then became a main focus on FE7. But despite existing, simply because it isn't mentioned doesn't necessarily mean it is unknown. But even Yune stated that they can create life from nothing, rather than saying they create life from the existing energy that is around. 

[Ice Dragon]

2 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

It isn't like quintessence gets mentioned that much. Quintessence got casually mentioned one time in Genealogy and then became a main focus on FE7. But despite existing, simply because it isn't mentioned doesn't necessarily mean it is unknown. But even Yune stated that they can create life from nothing, rather than saying they create life from the existing energy that is around. 

Maybe they're trying to hide the fact that quintessence exists from humans so that they don't go about trying to do stupid things like Nergal. Seems plausible enough. And makes them appear more powerful to humans.

Edited March 7, 2019 by Ice Dragon

[omegaxis1]

2 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Maybe they're trying to hide the fact that quintessence exists from humans so that they don't go about trying to do stupid things like Nergal. Seems plausible enough. And makes them appear more powerful to humans.

But you're ultimately proving my point. Even if she is making use of quintessence, you honestly expect a mortal man to know more about reviving people using quintessence than a literal goddess who spent eons with mortals?

[Ice Dragon]

2 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

But you're ultimately proving my point. Even if she is making use of quintessence, you honestly expect a mortal man to know more about reviving people using quintessence than a literal goddess who spent eons with mortals?

If their powers restrict them from actively manipulating quintessence to their will, then yes, a mortal man can be more adept at manipulating quintessence than a god. I'm pretty sure there exists a god that I can sing better than.

Maybe Ashunera ran out of stat points to allocate to manipulating quintessence to her will, hence why she created simpler beings instead of directly creating the Beorc and Laguz.

[Mercakete]

 

1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

That logic would work if all "gods" "promoted" from "god-like beings", but you fail to consider the fact that maybe there are alternate "promotion trees". For example, a Swordmaster might be a better Myrmidon, but that doesn't automatically make them a better Archer.

 

2 hours ago, Mercakete said:

It's not about having "all" powers, but rather "the clearly-stated powers that tier 1 and tier 2 beings can do." Using the RD class advancement system as a comparison, a swordmaster can do anything a myrm can do, but better. Likewise, a godlike being can do anything a mortal can do, but better. Further, a god can do anything a godlike being can do, but better. That is, limitations such as time, space, and aging affect the person in question less the higher his/her tier, not to mention inborn abilities. Now, the RD goddess made Tellius, but maybe didn't make the worlds of other FE games. I could see that being an understandable argument. There, I would accept "okay, but she's not comparable to this other being because someone else made that world." There, using the same illustration, it would be like comparing a swordmaster to a sage. They're built differently, even if they're the same tier. Sure; cool. But when you look at people who are actually pieces of her, then she should really be able to do everything they can do, but better. If you are the origin of all magic, then all magic is at your disposal. Nothing else makes any sense. If you can create life, then if someone dies, then you're able to recreate them and insert whatever that person needs to know.

I said that, though...

 

@omegaxis1 @Anacybele

I'm just happy I was able to help that misunderstanding get cleared up. ^_^ It's just so great when hurt gets erased because of clarity.

Edited March 7, 2019 by Mercakete

[Ice Dragon]

3 minutes ago, Mercakete said:

I said that, though...

Oh... uh... okay, then. (sweatdrop)

Edited March 7, 2019 by Ice Dragon

[Mercakete]

13 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Oh... uh... okay, then. (sweatdrop)

lol; don't worry about it. :)

[omegaxis1]

15 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

If their powers restrict them from actively manipulating quintessence to their will, then yes, a mortal man can be more adept at manipulating quintessence than a god. I'm pretty sure there exists a god that I can sing better than.

Maybe Ashunera ran out of stat points to allocate to manipulating quintessence to her will, hence why she created simpler beings instead of directly creating the Beorc and Laguz.

That's not a good comparison though. The thing about your logic is that you are claiming that Ashunera cannot create intelligent lifeforms, else she would have already made them directly. But unlike Nergal and others, who had at the very least a schematic of the creature they were forming, Ashunera had no schematic. Everything she created was based on whatever her imagination was. Though this is a weird case. Could she not look at her own reflection? Apparently not.

But having now interacted and been around other life forms, she WOULD by this point have a schematic of them in her mind, but by this point, the need to create life no longer mattered. And yet, she never even tried to bring anyone back after the Great Flood. 

12 minutes ago, Mercakete said:

I'm just happy I was able to help that misunderstanding get cleared up. ^_^ It's just so great when hurt gets erased because of clarity.

Yeah, thanks for that.

Edited March 7, 2019 by omegaxis1

[Mercakete]

13 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Yeah, thanks for that.

'Course! ^_^

[Anacybele]

2 hours ago, Mercakete said:

I'm just happy I was able to help that misunderstanding get cleared up. ^_^ It's just so great when hurt gets erased because of clarity.

Yeah, but don't worry too much about omegaxis and I "hurting" each other. lol We seem to actually disagree a lot, but we've also talked a lot in PMs and stuff, so we get along pretty well regardless. :)

[Othin]

Hmm. With Kaden not dropping, I wonder if he could be the third green here.

He's very recent for a legendary rerun, to be fair. The legendary banner will only be about a month after he launched and about three weeks after his banner ended. Closest precedent I could find is Laevatein, who was released in late September, had her banner run until late October, then showed up on Hrid's legendary banner at the end of November. But with the drought of New Heroes banners in the past few months, it does make sense that things could start getting cut close, particularly for green and colorless where they're really starting to run out. If they want to go with a relatively recent unit who isn't Lewyn or another round of Ephraim, he's the only real option.

(I'd certainly be happy with this. I already have Kagero, so I want someone I'm missing alongside the new mythic. In this case that basically means "not Lewyn", and tbh I'd rather have Kaden than Ephraim or Olwen right now.)

[Johann]

1 hour ago, Othin said:

Hmm. With Kaden not dropping, I wonder if he could be the third green here.

He's very recent for a legendary rerun, to be fair. The legendary banner will only be about a month after he launched and about three weeks after his banner ended. Closest precedent I could find is Laevatein, who was released in late September, had her banner run until late October, then showed up on Hrid's legendary banner at the end of November. But with the drought of New Heroes banners in the past few months, it does make sense that things could start getting cut close, particularly for green and colorless where they're really starting to run out. If they want to go with a relatively recent unit who isn't Lewyn or another round of Ephraim, he's the only real option.

(I'd certainly be happy with this. I already have Kagero, so I want someone I'm missing alongside the new mythic. In this case that basically means "not Lewyn", and tbh I'd rather have Kaden than Ephraim or Olwen right now.)

I suppose it's also possible that they cycle through Book II units again, but that mostly just fills out red and green. I definitely expect reruns of colorless some time soon though, cuz we've been getting like 1 new colorless per month (counting regular 5* and seasonals).

The more I think about this banner, the less likely I'll put many orbs into it unless there's an Astra hero. I only spent 15 orbs on January's banner, which was nice since I could save for February, and I'd like to be able to do that again for April/May.

[Lewyn]

Dayan is mentioned so much in Forging bonds, could he be the new mythic?  Well he lacks popularity and while a legend in his game, he is nothing like a god...so if anything he would fit legendary hero more than mythic.  Still interesting that he is mentioned so much, I don't recall other forging bonds mentioning characters not in the game a lot.