What if Elise and Camilla switched places?

[KelluPato]

I saw this lovely picture some time ago about Elise and Camilla.  The only difference about their normal selves was that Elise was the elder sister and Camilla the younger.  Elise was a pre-promoted strategist, and Camilla was a wyvern rider with high strength and magic stats.  That got me thinking, what if Elise and Camilla switched places?  Would Elise join in chapter 10 of Conquest, then?  How would that change the game?  I think it would be broken to have a wyvern rider in chapter 7 of Conquest. 

[starburst]

50 minutes ago, KelluPato said:

I think it would be broken to have a wyvern rider in chapter 7 of Conquest.

As in Wyvern Rider Elise?

[Landmaster]

Seeing as you can reclass Elise into a Wyvern Rider anyway, I don't see how it would make any difference to the chapters they join~

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Chapters 7 and 10 would be tricky when Jakob/Felicia are your only healers. But I think the biggest difference is in the retainers you recruit. Conquest is pretty much unbeatable on Lunatic without Effie's physical bulk. But on the other hand, Beruka's a pretty great and certainly more mobile tank depending on the stats they'd give her at her lower level. Selena, like Arthur would probably be dead weight. If Camilla was just level 7 I'm not sure how well she'd perform, and Elise would definitely rise in viability by being a pre promote healer. 

The ice village chapter would also be trivial with two fliers. That means you can ferry four units total to the west toward unprotected houses, and fliers are also probably immune to the dragon vein effect in that chapter

Edited March 3, 2019 by Glennstavos

[TheGoodHoms]

You'd pretty much have to redesign those first couple of chapters around the fact that you have access to a flying unit, but also one less healer.

[starburst]

45 minutes ago, Glennstavos said:

Chapters 7 and 10 would be tricky when Jakob/Felicia are your only healers. But I think the biggest difference is in the retainers you recruit. Conquest is pretty much unbeatable on Lunatic without Effie's physical bulk.

When you mention Jakob and Felicia, do you mean that Ch 7-10 may be trickier because they are worse healers than Elise, or because you normally use more than one healer?
If the former, I partially agree with you, because the servants need more staff uses to restore the same amount of HP.
If the latter, well, Elise usually is my only staff user (on Lunatic with ten units); so, your concern may be a style.

And when you mention Effie's bulk, are you still talking about early-game, or about the entire campaign?
If the former, I partially agree with you, but Corrin with the Dragon Stone and specially Silas can do what Knight Effie does.
If the latter, Effie's defence actually comes from her class bonuses, but she is not particularly bulky herself (and even passes -Def to her children.) When I use her, I prefer her as a Berserker or Sniper, and delegate the defensive tasks to Silas, Corrin or Velouria, even Sophie (on Lunatic with ten units, with no Xander or Camilla.)

Edited March 3, 2019 by starburst
Grammar.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

2 hours ago, starburst said:

When you mention Jakob and Felicia, do you mean that Ch 7-10 may be trickier because they are worse healers than Elise, or because you normally use more than one healer?
If the former, I partially agree with you, because the servants need more staff uses to restore the same amount of HP.
If the latter, well, Elise usually is my only staff user (on Lunatic with ten units); so, your concern may be a style.

And when you mention Effie's bulk, are you still talking about early-game, or about the entire campaign?
If the former, I partially agree with you, but Corrin with the Dragon Stone and specially Silas can do what Knight Effie does.
If the latter, Effie's defence actually comes from her class bonuses, but she is not particularly bulky herself (and even passes -Def to her children.) When I use her, I prefer her as a Berserker or Sniper, and delegate the defensive tasks to Silas, Corrin or Velouria, even Sophie (on Lunatic with ten units, with no Xander or Camilla.)

Part of the utility of Jakob/felicia is that they are both healers and debuffers in addition to ranged damage. So when they're forced to be the sole healer for those chapters, then yes, I think it hurts their usefulness when they spend most of their turns healing. I don't really know about late game Lunatic Conquest because I didn't get especially far in my attempt (I was bored of constant turtling through one batch of enemies at a time) and because I don't often reclass or in general and experience is limited in Conquest. In the experience I do have with Lunatic Conquest I'm more than aware of Corrin's ability to tank with dragon stone, I just often need two or more tanks swapping in to gain ground and moving out to get healed to full. Having more options for tanking in the late game sounds nice but I was only ever talking about how chapters 7-10 change.

[starburst]

3 hours ago, Glennstavos said:

Part of the utility of Jakob/felicia is that they are both healers and debuffers in addition to ranged damage. So when they're forced to be the sole healer for those chapters, then yes, I think it hurts their usefulness when they spend most of their turns healing.

I see your point and that would indeed be one of the 'costs' of using Wyvern Elise. I have limited experience with her, but other members do use Wyvern Elise more often and do some interesting stuff from the get-go, like Ch 7 in about six turns or Ch 8 in four, on Lunatic. They would argue that it is super easy to replace your main healer through Capture.
Zoran posted a couple of videos using Odin and Wyvern Elise some weeks ago.

When I used Wyvern Elise, I bought a couple of healing items and recruited and re-classed Anna into a Troubadour right after Ch 9, so that I always had a main healer available.
(I almost always play as Corrinette, but have a rare condition that makes allergic to Jakob's stupid face and fake accent.)

 

3 hours ago, Glennstavos said:

I don't really know about late game Lunatic Conquest because I didn't get especially far in my attempt (I was bored of constant turtling through one batch of enemies at a time) and because I don't often reclass or in general and experience is limited in Conquest. In the experience I do have with Lunatic Conquest I'm more than aware of Corrin's ability to tank with dragon stone, I just often need two or more tanks swapping in to gain ground and moving out to get healed to full.

Well, even if you decided to class-change Effie, it would still happen after Ch 10 (unless you grind Supports.) So, Knight Effie would still be there for you, like Friends.
And, yes, you do need two (and sometimes three) units playing defensive roles in Lunatic. But whatever Knight Effie does can be reproduced by other non-armoured units (still ignoring Xander or WL Camilla.)

About turtling on Conquest Lunatic, it may sound counter-intuitive but a way to discourage it is to use less units, say, twelve. This way, precisely because you will always be aware that your party cannot sustain so many Enemy Phases and that you only have a certain amount of power, you will be forced to play aggressively and rely on Attack Stance.

Edited March 4, 2019 by starburst

[Shadow Mir]

7 hours ago, TheGoodHoms said:

You'd pretty much have to redesign those first couple of chapters around the fact that you have access to a flying unit, but also one less healer.

Pretty much this. Felicia and Jakob would suffer in this case since part of their utility is tied to debuffing.

[joshcja]

My use of Mcorn would increase 100% with this change and... Nothing else would happen. Sans Elise deployment on ch12, as a MK, brb as the game snaps in half.

Heal staves are really bad in fates.

Edited March 4, 2019 by joshcja

[Kaze's favourite pillow]

Chapter 7: as if Arthur wasn't already in a bad position, Camilla totally invalidates him. Oh and Effie too, Camy is bulky enough and Effie is the single most overrated units in the series

Paralouge 1: Camilla would make Mozu's recruitement much faster without wasting gold for a heart seal

Chapter 8: could be tricky if you reclass the servant, otherwise it's a piece of cake. Camilla would break Flora in half and stop her freeze spam right off the bat

Chapter 9: nothing would really change, Niles is the one to finish Haitaka anyways

Chapter 10: oh boy. An early promoted Camilla would cover what she couldn't in vanilla in the first turns. Elise's magic would be just below Leo's but her speed would be much higher, just like Vanilla!Camy and Xander. D tomes and C in staves. Other than that... Vanilla!Camy is promoted at level 10 so I guess Elise would be like that as well. And I always early-promote Elise before chapter 10, therefore I know how she works. Mostly healing and kill some savages with tomes, but she wouldn't put the biggest amount of work.

Chapter 11: Camilla should have C rank to use the dual club and murder even the Life or Death Samurai squad. Elise vs Hinoka would be less one-sides and the conversation wouldn't be as brutal, just petty.

Chapter 12: I assume Camilla gets ill. Elise would take Camilla's place as a potential Ryoma Killer, but she would fare far worse than Vanilla!Camy overall because of the poor bulk and lack of axes. Even if you reclass her, C axe rank would be hard to reach at that point.

Chapter 13 and onward: almost everything should go like it does in Vanilla!Conquest, you'd be crazy to have your best Wyvern Rider still unpromoted when Leo joins. She would have issues with tomes but Malig Camilla is made for the Bolt Axe, or you could just go Wyvern Lord and build dat lance rank. Meanwhile Elise could actually use tomes efficiently due to base D rank, Thunder and Horse Spirit are pretty cool. Potential access to Lightning as well.

 

As for Revelation... Elise would be quite good (should totally go Malig though) and Camilla would probably be pretty bad.

 

Last but not least, Elise wouldn't be a yandere in Birthright, but would be totally heart-broken in the last scene since she Camilla gets Siegfrieded. As a boss she would the easisest promoted boss in FE history. Ninjas would laugh at her and ORKO with a brass shuriken.

[Shadow Mir]

1 hour ago, Kaze's favourite pillow said:

Chapter 7: as if Arthur wasn't already in a bad position, Camilla totally invalidates him. Oh and Effie too, Camy is bulky enough and Effie is the single most overrated units in the series

Paralouge 1: Camilla would make Mozu's recruitement much faster without wasting gold for a heart seal

Chapter 8: could be tricky if you reclass the servant, otherwise it's a piece of cake. Camilla would break Flora in half and stop her freeze spam right off the bat

Chapter 9: nothing would really change, Niles is the one to finish Haitaka anyways

Chapter 10: oh boy. An early promoted Camilla would cover what she couldn't in vanilla in the first turns. Elise's magic would be just below Leo's but her speed would be much higher, just like Vanilla!Camy and Xander. D tomes and C in staves. Other than that... Vanilla!Camy is promoted at level 10 so I guess Elise would be like that as well. And I always early-promote Elise before chapter 10, therefore I know how she works. Mostly healing and kill some savages with tomes, but she wouldn't put the biggest amount of work.

Chapter 11: Camilla should have C rank to use the dual club and murder even the Life or Death Samurai squad. Elise vs Hinoka would be less one-sides and the conversation wouldn't be as brutal, just petty.

Chapter 12: I assume Camilla gets ill. Elise would take Camilla's place as a potential Ryoma Killer, but she would fare far worse than Vanilla!Camy overall because of the poor bulk and lack of axes. Even if you reclass her, C axe rank would be hard to reach at that point.

Chapter 13 and onward: almost everything should go like it does in Vanilla!Conquest, you'd be crazy to have your best Wyvern Rider still unpromoted when Leo joins. She would have issues with tomes but Malig Camilla is made for the Bolt Axe, or you could just go Wyvern Lord and build dat lance rank. Meanwhile Elise could actually use tomes efficiently due to base D rank, Thunder and Horse Spirit are pretty cool. Potential access to Lightning as well.

 

As for Revelation... Elise would be quite good (should totally go Malig though) and Camilla would probably be pretty bad.

 

Last but not least, Elise wouldn't be a yandere in Birthright, but would be totally heart-broken in the last scene since she Camilla gets Siegfrieded. As a boss she would the easisest promoted boss in FE history. Ninjas would laugh at her and ORKO with a brass shuriken.

First bold: I doubt that. It'd probably be some myrmidon or swordmaster, because the fandom likes to hype those classes to hell and back. And pretty much ten times out of ten, they tend to not live up to the dizzying amounts of hype they have lauded on them. 

Second bold: That spot already belongs to Daniela, who you can weaken into OHKO range from anyone thanks to Dragon Veins.

Anyway, is this all from your own perspective or not?

Edited March 6, 2019 by Shadow Mir

[starburst]

3 hours ago, Kaze's favourite pillow said:

Last but not least, Elise wouldn't be a yandere in Birthright, but would be totally heart-broken in the last scene since she Camilla gets Siegfrieded. As a boss she would the easisest promoted boss in FE history. Ninjas would laugh at her and ORKO with a brass shuriken.

Nice, funny summary, mate. I still have my doubts about Chapter 10, for I would not early-promote Camilla and miss on her sweet growths, but a drugged Camilla with Arthur in Guard Stance should be able to do most, if not all, of what normal MK Camilla does.

One question: How would Mozu's recruitment be 'much faster' with an early Camilla? I always recruit Mozu by Turn 4 with Cornflakes and Silas, and it is perfectly reproducible, even if Silas did not gain a single level in Ch 7. A flier might save one turn, but that would be it.

[Kaze's favourite pillow]

17 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Second bold: That spot already belongs to Daniela, who you can weaken into OHKO range from anyone thanks to Dragon Veins.

Anyway, is this all from your own perspective or not?

Oh boy, now I need to buy Birthright. Anyways I tried to be as objective as possible.

14 hours ago, starburst said:

One question: How would Mozu's recruitment be 'much faster' with an early Camilla? I always recruit Mozu by Turn 4 with Cornflakes and Silas, and it is perfectly reproducible, even if Silas did not gain a single level in Ch 7. A flier might save one turn, but that would be it.

It kinda depends. If you recruit Azura first you should be able to recruit Mozu in 2 turns.

[Shadow Mir]

4 hours ago, Kaze's favourite pillow said:

Oh boy, now I need to buy Birthright. Anyways I tried to be as objective as possible.

From your own perspective, right? Because I wouldn't mind someone who I could reliably use to defeat Haitaka (Arthur and Niles aren't reliable, and Haitaka's more than enough of a pain in the ass for me to go "screw capture").

Edited March 7, 2019 by Shadow Mir

[Azure the Scale Tipper]

I wonder what would happen if the retainers switched as well. Two Wyverns in the first chapter seems nuts. So Arthur would get hit a little harder in terms of quality.

[Kaze's favourite pillow]

On 11/3/2019 at 2:19 PM, Azure in a Roundabout said:

I wonder what would happen if the retainers switched as well. Two Wyverns in the first chapter seems nuts. So Arthur would get hit a whole lot harder in terms of quality.

Fixed that for you :)