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Return of Genealogy/Thracia's Bloodline Mechanic?


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One of my favorite parts, story-wise and gameplay-wise, of the Jugdral Saga would definitely have to be the numerous Bloodlines present in many of the game's main characters. I have always loved the impact the genealogy of the characters has on the plot, as well as learning about the 12 Crusaders. Further still, I loved being able to control an army that included direct descendants of these Crusaders while still being able to fight against some of the other members of the different bloodlines. With this mechanic in mind, what would it be like to see a new Fire Emblem game implement it into a new setting and plot?

I know future Fire Emblem games did something similar in terms of holy weapons (Binding Blade, Sacred Stones, etc.), but I really don't think anything has truly replicated what the Jugdral Saga did in terms of utilizing Bloodlines for gameplay mechanics and story. I guess this is because almost the entirety of FE4&5 were meant to be centered around this idea of genealogy, so I understand. This may be personal bias coming into play, but I am sure if Intelligent Systems were to replicate this mechanic in a future Fire Emblem game, it would be amazing! If they were create a different plot with different characters, but still keep the same idea presented in the Jugdral Saga, I would instantly fall in love. There are so many memorable interactions in those two games between many different characters. Bias aside, I genuinely believe that with Fire Emblem's renewed popularity, a similarly veined game would be a huge success.

But what are your thoughts and opinions? Would you like to see a future Fire Emblem game implement this mechanic? Let me know what your thoughts are.

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It did make the generational mechanics more compelling than they were in Awakening/Fates, at least imo.

What really made the genealogy interesting was how they made the descendants of the crusaders interact with each other.  I think of the phrase "light and dark" that's used in Chapter 10 and the opening narration of the final chapter, and how you essentially had the descendants of these great crusaders fighting against each other for various reasons.  In particular, there were the descendants of Fjalar getting all cozy with Galle's cursed bloodline, the descendants of Thrud fighting among each other in both generations (Tailtiu vs. Reptor Gen 1, Tine and Arthur vs. Bloom, Ishtor, and Ishtar Gen 2), the descendants of Odo waging war against the Grannvalian descendants (and then closely befriending a descendant of Saint Heim and Baldur in Gen 2), and the lovers' descendants (Njörun and Dain) viciously slaughtering each other (Yied Massacre; Dain's descendant Travant killing one of Njörun's descendants).

And then there are Deirdre and Julia, who are descendants of both Saint Heim and Galle.  The blood of both Naga and Loptuous flowed through their veins, even if the latter wasn't prominent in Julia.  Or other descendants of mixed blood, like Seliph or Quan's kids.  Basically, I just like how mixed up the genealogy gets, and how friendly bloodlines become hostile ones and vice-versa over the course of hundreds of years.

Maybe that's what's missing in most other Fire Emblems.  Archanea has one holy bloodline and a few special weapons, Elibe has a bunch of special weapons with no clear focus on holy bloodlines, Magvel backpedals on this, Tellius instead emphasizes the power of mortal men, and Fates and Valentia are diet coke versions of the conflict between Heim and Galle's descendants.  Nowhere in the series are the bonds of blood so intermingled or so messy as they are in Jugdral.

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No way, absolutely not, forget it, etc etc. It overcomplicates things that don't need overcomplicating, and doesn't really add to the game.

Edited by Shadow Mir
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Narratively they were really great I think. Helps add to the irony and tragedy of the game at times. Gameplay wise, though, Holy Blood was way too strong in FE4. A lot of Holy Blood users were just insane while those without just can't keep up.

Edited by SatsumaFSoysoy
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6 hours ago, FE_McFly said:

But what are your thoughts and opinions? Would you like to see a future Fire Emblem game implement this mechanic? Let me know what your thoughts are.

in terms of new games, no.

but i surely would love to see a proper remake of Genealogy and Thracia, as long as they keep the same story script of the original games.

Genealogy could also be rebalanced in some ways gameplay-wise, while i believe Thracia is perfect as it is.

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Playing Geneology right now:

Gameplay wise, gods no, holy blood unbalances everything.

That or nerf the holy weapons and the growth rates (which would make it unnecessary)

I know that lore wise a major blood can fight tens of men by him/herself but it is boring (and that coming from a man that LOVES being overpowered).

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2 hours ago, Fenreir said:

in terms of new games, no.

but i surely would love to see a proper remake of Genealogy and Thracia, as long as they keep the same story script of the original games.

Genealogy could also be rebalanced in some ways gameplay-wise, while i believe Thracia is perfect as it is.

The unbalance holy weapon can be easily fixed by increasing the repair cost a lot much more.

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6 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

No way, absolutely not, forget it, etc etc. It overcomplicates things that don't need overcomplicating, and doesn't really add to the game.

I'll concur here since IS's royalty bias is bad enough as it is.

Edited by Von Ithipathachai
Removed a potentially derailing additional line.
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I mention beforehand that I talk about more about the story aspects of those bloodlines than gameplay.

I love the idea of bloodlines I think they can give so much depth to the world building and characters. I think medieval games can often build on bloodlines, "historical events" and such. I also like the idea in general for bloodlines to intertwine or that one person had different partner and different children. Its even kind fun looking at the family tree in Genealogy and looking how they are all related. I mean genealogy has quite a few half siblings. Its just interesting to look at.

I would be even happy for Insys to take their time and making a second game of the next generation, or prequel if a game which is more into bloodlines succeeds. With that they can make it even more deeper.
But that was just about the story part.

And I also think that players who are new to the series are actually very interested in genealogy and its world building, through feh I feel stronger with this opinion. Its just that somehow IntSys fails to see this...I still don't know what holds them back to localize these games...

At least I see a few steps in that direction through the crests in Three Houses, but I fear they will not build much on the families of each character...or implement it in the gameplay. We can only see. 

For Gameplay well..I get mixed feelings here and if they do I guess more balanced. I think Kaga mentioned that he took too much emphasize to the story in genealogy and messed a bit up with the gameplay. Its sad that apparently fire emblem cannot get it done both for total satisfaction.

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1 hour ago, Stroud said:

And I also think that players who are new to the series are actually very interested in genealogy and its world building, through feh I feel stronger with this opinion. Its just that somehow IntSys fails to see this...I still don't know what holds them back to localize these games...

Probably because it's a risky endeavor - simply put, FE4 isn't the easiest of games to play, and odds are IS is either gonna alienate FE4 fans if they change too much, or risk pissing off everyone else if they don't change enough.

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48 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Probably because it's a risky endeavor - simply put, FE4 isn't the easiest of games to play, and odds are IS is either gonna alienate FE4 fans if they change too much, or risk pissing off everyone else if they don't change enough.

Yeah right, at least they do not have any confidence that they will profit from it. And FE4 still has its flaws. 
And there are also some topics they may fear repercussion for in the game who knows. Well that is what fan translations are for. I want to play it original one day though. 

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On 17/3/2019 at 2:39 PM, Tetragrammaton said:

The unbalance holy weapon can be easily fixed by increasing the repair cost a lot much more.

what makes those weapons overpowered isn't their base stats or skills, wich could be fine as they are since they're supposed to be legendary items after all.

it's the stats boosts that they give to their owners wich entirely breaks the game, especially when they can stack with rings too. we're talking about stats boosts that go from +10 to +20 on multiple stats at once, make it +15~+25 with rings included. that's just overkill.

Holy Blood growth rates wouldn't be an issue either, since all stats are capped at 30 anyway.

it helps in getting some stats maxed out faster and with better chances compared to normal units, but since the majority of the children from 2nd generation has either minor or major Holy Blood from their parents( unless you're doing a no-inheritance run ), it becomes a trivial matter( end game units will have about 25~30 in their main stats anyway, especially after reaching promotion gains ).

22 hours ago, Stroud said:

Yeah right, at least they do not have any confidence that they will profit from it. And FE4 still has its flaws. 
And there are also some topics they may fear repercussion for in the game who knows. Well that is what fan translations are for. I want to play it original one day though. 

the game would have been way better if they simply added the feature for horseback/flying units to carry another unit with them, just like they did starting from Thracia 776. that way the gameplay overall could have been a lot less tedious in some situations( ironically, Arthur did came together with Fee on a pegasus in chapter 6...).

adding the dismount option from FE3/FE5 to all horseback/flying units could have been another good addition for desert/forest/mountain maps, making traveling even more easier.

those two features alone could have been a major improvement for Genealogy, but i guess they learned their lesson with Thracia 776.

some people may eventually complain that FE4 was also harder due to the lack of healing potions, wich is partially true, but it's also a unique aspect of the game that made planning tactics a vital part of the gameplay. and if you played the game as intended, there was not much need for them.

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5 hours ago, Fenreir said:

what makes those weapons overpowered isn't their base stats or skills, wich could be fine as they are since they're supposed to be legendary items after all.

it's the stats boosts that they give to their owners wich entirely breaks the game, especially when they can stack with rings too. we're talking about stats boosts that go from +10 to +20 on multiple stats at once, make it +15~+25 with rings included. that's just overkill.

Holy Blood growth rates wouldn't be an issue either, since all stats are capped at 30 anyway.

it helps in getting some stats maxed out faster and with better chances compared to normal units, but since the majority of the children from 2nd generation has either minor or major Holy Blood from their parents( unless you're doing a no-inheritance run ), it becomes a trivial matter( end game units will have about 25~30 in their main stats anyway, especially after reaching promotion gains ).

Not really, if the holy weapons get only 10/20 uses and easily break when the enemies gang up on you.

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19 hours ago, Tetragrammaton said:

Not really, if the holy weapons get only 10/20 uses and easily break when the enemies gang up on you.

people tend to use the Crusader weapons either in critical situations when they need to survive multiple attacks, or against bosses, so lowering the usage wouldn't matter that much.

it would just make players more aware about each unit survival chances overall, while forcing them to play with more defensive formations depending on the situation.

and it's not like Crusader weapons are cheap to repair anyway, since you can't use them for an entire map unless you want to go bankrupt. can't have Bargain and Thief rings on everyone either.

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4 hours ago, Fenreir said:

people tend to use the Crusader weapons either in critical situations when they need to survive multiple attacks, or against bosses, so lowering the usage wouldn't matter that much.

it would just make players more aware about each unit survival chances overall, while forcing them to play with more defensive formations depending on the situation.

and it's not like Crusader weapons are cheap to repair anyway, since you can't use them for an entire map unless you want to go bankrupt. can't have Bargain and Thief rings on everyone either.

So you're saying double or triple the price means nothing.

Edited by Tetragrammaton
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10 minutes ago, Tetragrammaton said:

So you're saying double or triple the price means nothing.

So you are saying that instead of just balancing their bonuses we should make them super unfun to use since we will be micromanaging each use of the darned things?

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20 hours ago, Tetragrammaton said:

So you're saying double or triple the price means nothing.

it's not that it means nothing, it's that it just doesn't make any sense for the purpose it's intended for. might as well just lock repairing options out at this point.

repairing a Crusader weapon costs 50.000 gold when it's entirely broken, wich means it's 1.000 gold for a single attack. since most if not all owners of Crusader weapons will have Pursuit, that's at least 2.000 gold going out in case they don't oneshot the target right away. if you kill only 10 enemies with just double attacks, it's already 20.000 gold gone.

use a Crusader weapon for an entire map, and not even the arenas will help you with covering repair costs. you won't even clear the map with those weapons, simply because they'll break even before you get to the last castle.

only units with the Bargain or Thief ring can manage to use them often, and it's still not worth it due to the lack of critical chances on most of them, along with other factors like skills and items builds.

everyone else will either have normal/hero weapons with 50 kills, or Critical skills. or even both depending on items swapping.

a Silver weapon with 50 kills unlocked, or a Hero weapon on someone with Pursuit, are far more worthy to use than a Crusader weapon with no double attack/passive critical chance in terms of repair costs and utility, for the reasons explained above.

Ares with a Thief ring is literally the only unit worth using with that build due to the passive critical skill of the Mystoltin, and because the Thief ring is the only item in game that can cover the costs of Crusader weapon usage since it's at least a minimum of 3.000 gold coming in from a defeated common enemy.

 

meanwhile with a Barrier/Defender sword and Barrier/Shield ring a unit can get up to +12 in either Defence or Resistance.

there's no other stats-boosting weapons except for the Crusader ones, and since majority of endgame enemies are either groups of armored units, or groups of mages, or even armored units using magic in some cases, guess what will happen if you give even more handicaps to Crusader weapons. people will use them only on bosses, because they'll loose all their utility.

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On 3/17/2019 at 3:15 AM, Ertrick36 said:

Fates and Valentia are diet coke versions of the conflict between Heim and Galle's descendants.

Diet Coke or New Coke?

I'd throw Awakening in this same Jugdral lite blood mechanics group.

 

On 3/18/2019 at 1:57 PM, Fenreir said:

it's the stats boosts that they give to their owners wich entirely breaks the game, especially when they can stack with rings too. we're talking about stats boosts that go from +10 to +20 on multiple stats at once, make it +15~+25 with rings included. that's just overkill.

Yeah. I mean I wouldn't want the bonuses reduced to a mere +5 on one stat, and Naga can stay as broken as it is already, since only the Deadlords and Julius if anything remain for it.

This said, having just finished FE4 for the first time, I do think a couple of the challenges were built around the Holy Weapons and their ridiculous boosts. Shannan and Ares make the Yied Loptyr horde and Ishtore bearable (although Seliph with the Barrier Ring he just so happened to inherit with the Sonic Sword got around him... after dying a few times and having to play with the RNG since Ishtore has freakin' Adept which Nihil doesn't negate). And without Tyrfing, the status-siege overload of Edda and Velthomer would be totally unfair. They'd have to adjust these menaces if they nerfed the Holy Weapons. 

 

1 hour ago, Fenreir said:

that's at least 2.000 gold going out in case they don't oneshot the target right away.

Which is very likely when you consider the massive HP stats enemies have. 

And Arena rarely calls for Holy Weapons indeed. Ced breaks things easily enough with Light, and Shannan with a Thief Sword- the worse in the game- has it easy enough most of the time.

 

1 hour ago, Fenreir said:

and because the Thief ring is the only item in game that can cover the costs of Crusader weapon usage since it's at least a minimum of 3.000 gold coming in from a defeated common enemy.

 

Not to mention that ring/bracelet/band is out in the middle of nowhere in Chapter 9. The only one who can get it quickly is Fee, although you will need a little time to take down Thracia's Wyverns, and it doesn't necessarily call for a full army to do so, Ced/Hawk left alone could probably do it. 

And if you don't get it from the village, it'd require ALOT of fighting to break even on buying a 40k item at the pawn shop so you have more Holy Weapon money. It's counterintuitive. (You also need to make sure en route to the village that you don't let the Rogue hit you and swipe you present funds away.)

 

As for the topic of Holy Blood, I'd be fine with its return. Although for it to be anything significant in gameplay and not just lore, which Awakening has with the Exalt line, I think there has to be a generation mechanic. (Or magical blood transfusions. Which TBF is the origin of all FE Holy Blood.) Otherwise, why not just make Holy Weapons outright Prfs? That is what most games do.

Edited by Interdimensional Observer
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On 3/20/2019 at 6:18 AM, RexBolt said:

So you are saying that instead of just balancing their bonuses we should make them super unfun to use since we will be micromanaging each use of the darned things?

I'm saying it's one of many way of balancing by reducing the total usage.

"great power comes great responsibility"

3 hours ago, Fenreir said:

it's not that it means nothing, it's that it just doesn't make any sense for the purpose it's intended for. might as well just lock repairing options out at this point.

repairing a Crusader weapon costs 50.000 gold when it's entirely broken, wich means it's 1.000 gold for a single attack. since most if not all owners of Crusader weapons will have Pursuit, that's at least 2.000 gold going out in case they don't oneshot the target right away. if you kill only 10 enemies with just double attacks, it's already 20.000 gold gone.

use a Crusader weapon for an entire map, and not even the arenas will help you with covering repair costs. you won't even clear the map with those weapons, simply because they'll break even before you get to the last castle.

only units with the Bargain or Thief ring can manage to use them often, and it's still not worth it due to the lack of critical chances on most of them, along with other factors like skills and items builds.

everyone else will either have normal/hero weapons with 50 kills, or Critical skills. or even both depending on items swapping.

a Silver weapon with 50 kills unlocked, or a Hero weapon on someone with Pursuit, are far more worthy to use than a Crusader weapon with no double attack/passive critical chance in terms of repair costs and utility, for the reasons explained above.

Ares with a Thief ring is literally the only unit worth using with that build due to the passive critical skill of the Mystoltin, and because the Thief ring is the only item in game that can cover the costs of Crusader weapon usage since it's at least a minimum of 3.000 gold coming in from a defeated common enemy.

 

meanwhile with a Barrier/Defender sword and Barrier/Shield ring a unit can get up to +12 in either Defence or Resistance.

there's no other stats-boosting weapons except for the Crusader ones, and since majority of endgame enemies are either groups of armored units, or groups of mages, or even armored units using magic in some cases, guess what will happen if you give even more handicaps to Crusader weapons. people will use them only on bosses, because they'll loose all their utility.

I think 50000 gold for 20 usage is a fair price for such uber weapons. The huge boost is worth the price.

Well, maybe that's the different between a S rank weapon and a * rank weapon.

Edited by Tetragrammaton
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On 3/17/2019 at 5:50 AM, Fenreir said:

Genealogy could also be rebalanced in some ways gameplay-wise, while i believe Thracia is perfect as it is.

I strongly disagree that Thracia is perfect as is - does your idea of being perfect involve mechanics that gear toward unnecessary complexity, mechanic bloat, and overall making the game hard to play???

Edited by Shadow Mir
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2 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

I strongly disagree that Thracia is perfect as is - does your idea of being perfect involve mechanics that gear toward unnecessary complexity, mechanic bloat, and overall making the game hard to play???

And what if it does?  Some people find complexity that you'd consider unnecessary appealing and engaging.  I personally don't like the Holy Blood system or how Radiant Dawn handles the Trinity of Magic, but others might find it gives the game more personality.

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8 hours ago, Von Ithipathachai said:

And what if it does?  Some people find complexity that you'd consider unnecessary appealing and engaging.  I personally don't like the Holy Blood system or how Radiant Dawn handles the Trinity of Magic, but others might find it gives the game more personality.

Then he needs to think long and hard about what being perfect means - there's no way in the seven hells I could acknowledge a game with flaws as glaring as Thracia's as perfect. FFS, we're talking about the same game where healing staves can miss (why the fuck is this a thing???)...

Edited by Shadow Mir
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Due the 1-99 range  for RNG Thracia went with also applies to staves.

Personally, I think that unless you're spoilt by the 2RN system, it should not be that big of a fuss those 1% chances of hitting or missing. It may just be personal preference, but I find it a bit of a thril the idea to not have guaranteed hits or misses.

Then again, what would I know? Someone who has actually played the game and lived through it should weight in as their words would superceed mine.

Come to think of it, this wouldn't just be for FE. I don't think I've played a game that employs what Thracia776 does with the RNG. Not even SRW, best I know, restricts the 0-100 range.

 

Edited by Acacia Sgt
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