Gender and Outfits in Heroes

[Interdimensional Observer]

8 hours ago, Nanima said:

Laguz Rulers like Tibarn, Nailah and Naeala,

I forgot Nailah was on there actually.  Happens when 99% of the time you just use Tibarn-Naesala-Reyson-Leanne for the content you play. The theme I had in mind was "Leanne and her defenders", since they all defend Leanne to some degree at some point.

 

3 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Yes. Yes I think male Corrin was chosen exactly for that!

 

Another little act of forgetting on my part of the injured art , for someone who likes being analytical and gathering data sometimes, these things somehow happen. 

That, I think I prefer a purple-black fan recolor of Adrift Morrin to the original in white.

[XRay]

1 hour ago, Othin said:

That does not change the points about outfits and monetization, and I'm not sure what specific points you're trying to make with those numbers.

Heroic Grail units are technically free and are not directly monetized, so that is a category that is more pandering to female players. As a dude, I much rather have free waifus than having to pay for them.

Players also try to summon Legendary and Mythic Heroes, and that is a monetized category that is practically gender balanced.

 

 

[Alastor15243]

Regarding what I said before, I would be interested to see a study on the demographics of whales. Like I said, I'm quite confident the group of people willing to pay thousands of dollars to try to get sexy talking jpegs are overwhelmingly male, which would certainly explain the bias towards sexy ladies. But does anyone know if anything concrete or scientific has been done?

[Interdimensional Observer]

2 minutes ago, XRay said:

Heroic Grail units are technically free and are not directly monetized, so that is a category that is more pandering to female players. As a dude, I much rather have free waifus than having to pay for them.

 

Although don't you need a lot of Grails if you're looking to megamerge some of those units? And the only source of those besides a paltry 40 per FB is AR? And maximizing AR input requires investing in several other units, ideally Mythic Heroes, which can be obtained easier with money. Perhaps the intent behind free Spamilla and Sproki were to force AR play and investment? I wonder if IS is actually able to see from Spamilla whether this actually pays off, or if three to six months from now, it'll be back to purely male TT units due to Spamilla not having any perceivable revenue effects.

[XRay]

3 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Although don't you need a lot of Grails if you're looking to megamerge some of those units? And the only source of those besides a paltry 40 per FB is AR? And maximizing AR input requires investing in several other units, ideally Mythic Heroes, which can be obtained easier with money. Perhaps the intent behind free Spamilla and Sproki were to force AR play and investment? I wonder if IS is actually able to see from Spamilla whether this actually pays off, or if three to six months from now, it'll be back to purely male TT units due to Spamilla not having any perceivable revenue effects.

Most players on Serenes Forest seem to hate Aether Raids and try invest the minimal amount of effort and resources into it.

In terms of getting players to spend extra money, I am not sure Aether Raids will generate that much more revenue. Veteran players already have units built for performance back when Arena was not as dominated by scoring. The cheapest climbing team I have found so far consists of Distant Counter Sharena, 2 M!Corrins, and 2 Eirs; the most significant resources being 600 Dew, 80,000 Feathers which takes about a month or two to collect, and enough Orbs to summon 1 Hector and 1 Eir.

[Tybrosion]

49 minutes ago, XRay said:

Most players on Serenes Forest seem to hate Aether Raids and try invest the minimal amount of effort and resources into it.

Or in my case, pretty much zero effort at all. I should at least play it three times a week to get the 20 grails, yet I can’t even be assed to do that.

[Othin]

1 hour ago, XRay said:

Heroic Grail units are technically free and are not directly monetized, so that is a category that is more pandering to female players. As a dude, I much rather have free waifus than having to pay for them.

Players also try to summon Legendary and Mythic Heroes, and that is a monetized category that is practically gender balanced.

 

 

A category of units having more male than female units does not automatically mean that category is pandering to female players.

Legendary and mythic heroes are a small component of the ~200 5* exclusive units. Also, note that it draws primarily from main characters, a roster that skews primarily male. If there were any category of rare units that leaned male, you'd expect it to be that one. Yet because of including characters like Tiki and the OCs, it still ends up with a slight female majority. All things considered, the legendary/mythic roster still demonstrates a skew towards female units in monetized categories.

[Alastor15243]

1 hour ago, XRay said:

Most players on Serenes Forest seem to hate Aether Raids and try invest the minimal amount of effort and resources into it.

Really? While the buildings can be annoying (and the massive stat bonuses from having a good fortress building are just ridiculous), I Find it a lot more fun than, say, Arena, since there aren't any ridiculous mechanics designed to discourage fighting with anything other than one of eight units a week.

Edited March 23, 2019 by Alastor15243

[XRay]

29 minutes ago, Othin said:

A category of units having more male than female units does not automatically mean that category is pandering to female players.

But that category is a pretty big deal since it is also the only category that is completely free. Everything else costs Orbs.

29 minutes ago, Othin said:

Legendary and mythic heroes are a small component of the ~200 5* exclusive units. Also, note that it draws primarily from main characters, a roster that skews primarily male. If there were any category of rare units that leaned male, you'd expect it to be that one. Yet because of including characters like Tiki and the OCs, it still ends up with a slight female majority. All things considered, the legendary/mythic roster still demonstrates a skew towards female units in monetized categories.

It is a small component of 5* exclusive units, but it is not a small component in terms of summoning Foci. They are now featured every month with better summoning rates and the pity breaker pool is much smaller (or none if you want all 3 units of a particular color) and are generally better.

The skew is also so slight that it is practically balanced.

2 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

Really? While the buildings can be annoying (and the massive stat bonuses from having a good fortress building are just ridiculous), I Find it a lot more fun than, say, Arena, since there aren't any ridiculous mechanics designed to discourage fighting with anything other than one of eight units a week.

The Aether Raids thread is full of frustration and dislike.

While I also get frustrated with the mode, I still prefer it over Arena since I do not like babysitting units either.

Edited March 23, 2019 by XRay

[Othin]

3 minutes ago, XRay said:

But that category is a pretty big deal since it is also the only category that is completely free. Everything else costs Orbs.

It's a significant category, yes. It's significant for being the category where they dump units they don't want to try to monetize, generally with worse combat abilities than the ones they do.

It is a small component of 5* exclusive units, but it is not a small component in terms of summoning Foci. They are now featured every month with better summoning rates and the pity breaker pool is much smaller (or none if you want all 3 units of a particular color) and are generally better.

Shall we take a look at the gender balance of legendary banners?

• Fjorm: 9 F, 3 M
• Gunnthra: 7 F, 5 M
• Ike: 7 F, 5 M
• Ephraim: 4 F, 8 M
• Robin: 10 F, 2 M
• Lyn: 6 F, 6 M
• Ryoma: 5 F, 7 M
• Hector: 6 F, 6 M
• Lucina: 10 F, 2 M
• Marth: 8 F, 4 M
• Tiki: 7 F, 5 M
• Eirika: 9 F, 3 M
• Hrid: 8 F, 4 M
• Azura: 8 F, 4 M
• Duma: 7 F, 5 M
• Roy: 5 F, 7 M

I'm not actually sure what the contents of legendary banners have to do with this, but they have a pretty big female lean overall. Which shouldn't be surprising, since they're made entirely of 5* exclusive units, and all three categories of those have at least a small female lean.

The skew is also so slight that it is practically balanced.

Indeed. Which still illustrates my point.

[XRay]

50 minutes ago, Othin said:

It's a significant category, yes. It's significant for being the category where they dump units they don't want to try to monetize, generally with worse combat abilities than the ones they do.

Not wanting to monetize them is a big win for female players, not a big negative. And while not all of them are great units, neither are all Special Heroes great units either.

Naesala can run Galeforce for Aether Raids, although not as efficiently in my opinion as Cordelia nor Tibarn. However, he has higher Spd and potentially higher movement than Cordelia and his lower Atk is a good thing in some cases where you do not want to one shot something. He is also much cheaper to build compared to Tibarn.

Garon is great for tanking in dragon teams since he nullifies dragon effectiveness.

FH!Takumi's application is more niche, but he is a mobile Bolt Tower/Panic Manor for Aether Raids which can help out Vantage teams.

50 minutes ago, Othin said:

Shall we take a look at the gender balance of legendary banners?

• Fjorm: 9 F, 3 M
• Gunnthra: 7 F, 5 M
• Ike: 7 F, 5 M
• Ephraim: 4 F, 8 M
• Robin: 10 F, 2 M
• Lyn: 6 F, 6 M
• Ryoma: 5 F, 7 M
• Hector: 6 F, 6 M
• Lucina: 10 F, 2 M
• Marth: 8 F, 4 M
• Tiki: 7 F, 5 M
• Eirika: 9 F, 3 M
• Hrid: 8 F, 4 M
• Azura: 8 F, 4 M
• Duma: 7 F, 5 M
• Roy: 5 F, 7 M

I'm not actually sure what the contents of legendary banners have to do with this, but they have a pretty big female lean overall. Which shouldn't be surprising, since they're made entirely of 5* exclusive units, and all three categories of those have at least a small female lean.

The ratio is:
116 Female (60.42%) : 76 Male (39.58%)

The skew is no worse than 5* exclusive's nor Special Heroes' skew.

My point is that as a category, Legendary Heroes and Mythic Heroes are balanced, and not showing more categories where the gender ratios are more balanced or male skewed feels like it is cherry picking data. I agree that the game is skewed towards females, but I do not think it is as bad as people make them out to be.

[eclipse]

16 hours ago, GrandeRampel said:

He is literally wearing Azura's clothes. Almost all the girls I asked thought he was dreamy and cute, while almost all the guys thought he was silly and boring.

Here's an opinion that you didn't ask for, since anecdote = data in your mind.

I think the concept is hilarious, but the colors don't work.  Corrin's already a pale dude, and adding more white on top of it makes him looked extremely washed-out.

16 hours ago, Rezzy said:

The funny this is that in other topics of discussion elsewhere, I've seen people talk about the high percentage of "gamer girls" don't count because they mostly just play mobile games, yet here we are with a mobile game that isn't catering to females.

Gatekeepers.  Lovely.  Their opinion is worthless, since I don't do my hobbies for their approval.

 

8 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Yes. Yes I think male Corrin was chosen exactly for that!

But overall I do think male characters aren't given alts or more attention to appeal to the female fans. Alfonse is conventionally pretty and surely has his female fans but I don't think he got his bunny outfit based on that nor would a bridal Raigh have quite as much of an implication as bridal Sanaki. 

What is up with Corrin's toes in that shot?!

Child marriages with the boy being married young isn't as much of a hot-button topic, because I think girls were married off young, historically.  Pretty sure there's been cases of child marriages, but I can't think of too many examples (if any) where the groom is a child and the bride is not.

---

Opening post is a lot better, so this topic stays open, for now.

I'm in the "never gonna see most of my favorite characters" boat, because my tastes gravitate towards non-popular male characters.  Not sure what kind of outcry a mostly-male banner with a male TT/GHB would have, especially if it was primarily 3DS male alts (where's my Valentine's Virion dammit).

[Rezzy]

3 minutes ago, eclipse said:

I'm in the "never gonna see most of my favorite characters" boat, because my tastes gravitate towards non-popular male characters.  Not sure what kind of outcry a mostly-male banner with a male TT/GHB would have, especially if it was primarily 3DS male alts (where's my Valentine's Virion dammit).

Azel when?

[eclipse]

1 minute ago, Rezzy said:

Azel when?

He's got a higher chance of getting in than a good chunk of Archanea's cast, IMO.  He's related to the first-gen Big Bad.

My absolute favorite unit will probably be on a banner. . .never (he's well past the 400 mark in the popularity polls).

[Rezzy]

1 minute ago, eclipse said:

He's got a higher chance of getting in than a good chunk of Archanea's cast, IMO.  He's related to the first-gen Big Bad.

My absolute favorite unit will probably be on a banner. . .never (he's well past the 400 mark in the popularity polls).

I wonder if we're going to get an Archanea banner again anytime soon, considering it's been almost 2 years since our last one, though every other banner being seasonal is part of the problem with huge gaps between games getting a focus.

[eclipse]

1 minute ago, Rezzy said:

I wonder if we're going to get an Archanea banner again anytime soon, considering it's been almost 2 years since our last one, though every other banner being seasonal is part of the problem with huge gaps between games getting a focus.

I think we'll get one eventually, but I expect to see characters like Astram, Midia, Samson, and Arran, with maybe Nyna as a TT reward.

Maybe the next time they remember Marth, we'll see non-evil Hardin.

[Ice Dragon]

11 hours ago, NegativeExponents- said:

But lack of customization options in a game about customization is indeed a detriment and that’s what I believe Lewyn was trying to say, and if not well I’m saying it.

One point of customization, not the mention the must frustrating point of customization for some players, is not a significant detriment when you consider that there are at least 10 other customization points available to you.

If you really want to make it a point that lack of nature being a point of customization is a detriment, then beast units also lose one point of customization by having zero inheritable skills in the weapon slot, and I haven't seen anyone make that argument yet.

 

11 hours ago, NegativeExponents- said:

Unless a freebie has their stats well distributed or a really strong niche, which most don’t btw, than they will always be considered the inferior option compared to their competition.

This argument is not exclusive to free units.

The problem is not a lack of access to Assets and Flaws. It's simpler than that. The problem is their stat spread is inferior to their competition, and loads of summonable characters with full access to Assets and Flaws have problems with their stat spreads, too.

 

10 hours ago, Mercakete said:

Is it just me or do women tend to get the premium abilities/stats compared to their male counterparts?

Probably only by virtue of there being more 5-star-exclusive female characters than male characters. I'll have to look at the numbers, though, but we've got plenty of examples of male characters with premium skills and stats.

 

9 hours ago, Baldrick said:

But IVs do exist on summonable units. If Jamka had access to IVs he’d go from statistically worse than Bridelia (-1 atk -2 spd) to situationally better with a Brave Bow  (+1 atk -3 spd)

But they don't exist on non-summonable units. It's like arguing "Cordelia would be optimal with Bold Fighter". Bold Fighter exists and is obtainable by players. But it doesn't exist on Cordelia.

[eclipse]

32 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

If you really want to make it a point that lack of nature being a point of customization is a detriment, then beast units also lose one point of customization by having zero inheritable skills in the weapon slot, and I haven't seen anyone make that argument yet.

Because we don't have that many beast units.  Unless we get beast alt spam (please no), I don't think those weapons will be inheritable.  One can swap a sword they wield, but it's a lot harder to redo Keaton's teeth!

[Icelerate]

6 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

I forgot Nailah was on there actually.  Happens when 99% of the time you just use Tibarn-Naesala-Reyson-Leanne for the content you play. The theme I had in mind was "Leanne and her defenders", since they all defend Leanne to some degree at some point.

 

Is that your main go to team? That's also my main go to team for clearing content. 

[Lewyn]

6 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

I forgot Nailah was on there actually.  Happens when 99% of the time you just use Tibarn-Naesala-Reyson-Leanne for the content you play. The theme I had in mind was "Leanne and her defenders", since they all defend Leanne to some degree at some point.

 

 

28 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

Is that your main go to team? That's also my main go to team for clearing content. 

Me three!  My main go to team as well.  

[Ottservia]

5 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

Regarding what I said before, I would be interested to see a study on the demographics of whales. Like I said, I'm quite confident the group of people willing to pay thousands of dollars to try to get sexy talking jpegs are overwhelmingly male, which would certainly explain the bias towards sexy ladies. But does anyone know if anything concrete or scientific has been done?

I would also like to see those numbers honestly. It certainly would put things into perspective. Still with all this talk about about the series as a whole having more male characters than female characters it really does make you wonder what exactly the fans' tastes are in terms of popular characters and what went through IS's mind when creating said characters initially. I don't really know what I'm trying to say here but I just have a weird gut feeling regarding all of this.

[Nanima]

30 minutes ago, Lewyn said:

7 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

I forgot Nailah was on there actually.  Happens when 99% of the time you just use Tibarn-Naesala-Reyson-Leanne for the content you play. The theme I had in mind was "Leanne and her defenders", since they all defend Leanne to some degree at some point.

 

 

1 hour ago, Icelerate said:

Is that your main go to team? That's also my main go to team for clearing content. 

Me three!  My main go to team as well.  

Looks like it's a quartet. But I use them for Abyssals only, since they are so powerful.

Speaking of birbs: I think Vika has a decent chance of making it in despite having so little development. It would be odd to see her be more powerful than Naesala, but it could happen as we saw before. But seeing as the Binding Blade banner didn't have any insane powercreep (even Idunn doesn't really outpace H!Myrrh), so maybe that won't happen despite her later release date and more favored gender. 

[Ice Dragon]

12 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

and what went through IS's mind when creating said characters initially.

The characters in the main-series games don't need to be sold individually like they are in Heroes and therefore can be created with pretty much any design, popular or not.

This is slightly different in the 3DS games where dating sim elements exist, which is why most characters in those games are designed with a particular "marketable character trait" in mind... and why so many of the characters are so one-dimensional.

Edited March 23, 2019 by Ice Dragon

[Othin]

25 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

I would also like to see those numbers honestly. It certainly would put things into perspective. Still with all this talk about about the series as a whole having more male characters than female characters it really does make you wonder what exactly the fans' tastes are in terms of popular characters and what went through IS's mind when creating said characters initially. I don't really know what I'm trying to say here but I just have a weird gut feeling regarding all of this.

Because those male characters, like most male characters in media, were created to appeal to guys. It's not that complicated.

Just because FE apparently considers sex appeal the only kind of appeal for female characters doesn't mean it's ever handled male characters that way.

Edited March 23, 2019 by Othin

[Ottservia]

14 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

The characters in the main-series games don't need to be sold individually like they are in Heroes and therefore can be created with pretty much any design, popular or not.

This is slightly different in the 3DS games where dating sim elements exist, which is why most characters in those games are designed with a particular "marketable character trait" in mind... and why so many of the characters are so one-dimensional.

Still doesn't explain why echeos's cast is so boring and one-dimesional

Still though no one really sets out to make "bad" character. Each character was created because someone on the dev team thought they'd be received well by fans. Well either that or wanted to create a character like that for their own personal reasons regardless of how the fanbase reacted to them. I disagree on the whole on the 3ds characters being one-dimensional but I do see what you're trying to say and I agree to an extent(for fates anyway. awakening is a weird case when you look at all the factors of how that game came to be). Then again what makes a character marketable in this sense is probably the question I'm trying to ask here.

8 minutes ago, Othin said:

Because those male characters, like most male characters in media, were created to appeal to guys. It's not that complicated.

Just because FE apparently considers sex appeal the only kind of appeal for female characters doesn't mean it's ever handled male characters that way.

True and considering FE has followed mostly shounen styles of storytelling for most of its life that makes sense.