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Gender and Outfits in Heroes


Othin
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@eclipse regarding child grooms, it was more common among the royalty in Ancient Egypt and some European/West Asia countries several centuries ago. If I remember my history right, I think it was India(?) that held marriages between two children that they'd consummate once the youngest reached an age of maturity. I do remember some documentaries mentioning a Pharaoh that took the throne at a young age and was wed to his older sister so he had an advisor. *shrug*

Flower boy Nils would be utterly precious. I'd much rather see Groom Inigo/Laslow, though.

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One thing I've found with Heroes and that I kinda began realizing in Fates, is that the female characters are always more fanservice-y than the males. It's a pretty obvious statement with a pretty obvious answer; IS tends to "give" to their male audience more, but I always sort of wondered why they haven't done that with their male characters, especially when it comes to Heroes and its banners. I almost kind of expected it from them.

I've always joked about m!Corrin and asked why his outfit doesn't have the same thigh cutouts like f!Corrin's does, even though thighs aren't generally the first thing that come to mind when someone thinks about male fanservice. But, I think that if IS is going to do any fanservice at all, why not include some males? Considering the fact that there are more males across the series, why not give them some love too?

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4 hours ago, Othin said:

Artists are commissioned for specific prompts. Draw this character, in this outfit, probably with some specifications about pose as well.

"In this outfit" is explicitly contradicted by the existence of vanilla Eliwood's art, which is completely off-model. As best as I can tell, the artists are most likely given the character's battle sprite as their source-of-truth reference and are allowed to fill in the details themselves.

"In this pose" I find to be highly unlikely, mostly based on the fact that there is greater pose overlap within a single artist's works than across artists. My guess is that artists have the freedom to determine these themselves and generally pick based on their own preferences and skill sets (e.g. I don't like drawing hands, so I tend to pick poses that let me crop hands out of the frame or hide them behind things).

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7 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

I, uh, appreciate what the author was trying to do.

However, extremes don't suit someone who's as pale as Corrin.  It needs to be something in-between, and not a shade of white/black.  His eyes are red, so he can either go full complementary (a duller shade of cyan), or a darker magenta for something not so jarring.

Eh, go with the cyan.

6 hours ago, GrandeRampel said:

I asked for this when making my bold statement, didn't I?

Well to be fair, even if different people will obviously have different opinions, the original topic was about Corrin being bait for men, vs him being bait for women. You explained why you didn't like him, but nothing you said pointed towards him being made for horny boys.

Or to put it more clearly, the end result doesn't change the intention.

Hot Springs Camilla may look like ass, but it doesn't change that she was made for guys. Adrift Corrin may look like ass to you, but it doesn't change he was made for girls.

I'd be more inclined to agree for NY Corrin.  Adrift Corrin felt like he was included just to check off the "we included a guy" box, not necessarily as bait.  I think it would've been a little funnier to see Takumi in there instead.

2 hours ago, silverserpent said:

@eclipse regarding child grooms, it was more common among the royalty in Ancient Egypt and some European/West Asia countries several centuries ago. If I remember my history right, I think it was India(?) that held marriages between two children that they'd consummate once the youngest reached an age of maturity. I do remember some documentaries mentioning a Pharaoh that took the throne at a young age and was wed to his older sister so he had an advisor. *shrug*

Flower boy Nils would be utterly precious. I'd much rather see Groom Inigo/Laslow, though.

I was specifically asking for examples of younger male versus adult female.  Younger female with adult male is something I'm vaguely familiar with.

Other than that one pharoah (who "married" someone directly related to him), it doesn't seem like the practice is that common.  Thus, I don't see Raigh ruffling as many feathers as Sanaki.

6 hours ago, Nowi's Husband said:

What even is proper male fanservice?  It always seems so nebulous with the power fantasy for males concept.  I don't have a point of reference of what people are wanting out of it since I'm a guy myself, not into other guys.

Some women go for half-naked, muscular guys.  I prefer intelligent, sensitive guys who look like they know how to take care of themselves (I don't need a six-pack, but I'd rather not see six months pregnant). . .which isn't exactly the first thing that comes to mind when "fanservice" is mentioned!

If a woman designed a banner with other women in mind, I could totally see something like Perceval, Inigo, Navarre, and Ranulf, with Gerik as a TT reward.  Covers a bunch of popular personality/body types.

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52 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

"In this outfit" is explicitly contradicted by the existence of vanilla Eliwood's art, which is completely off-model. As best as I can tell, the artists are most likely given the character's battle sprite as their source-of-truth reference and are allowed to fill in the details themselves.

"In this pose" I find to be highly unlikely, mostly based on the fact that there is greater pose overlap within a single artist's works than across artists. My guess is that artists have the freedom to determine these themselves and generally pick based on their own preferences and skill sets (e.g. I don't like drawing hands, so I tend to pick poses that let me crop hands out of the frame or hide them behind things).

Vanilla Eliwood was very early on, and has gotten a lot of complaints. If they found the early art descriptions to allow that sort of oversight, I think it'd be expected for them to give more clear specifications in the future. And "give the battle sprite as a reference and let them fill in the details" is exactly what I meant by saying they specify outfit anyway.

Fair point about pose, at least in general. I do still think it's plausible that they sometimes have some specifications about it, if only vague ones, but that's just a guess.

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15 minutes ago, Othin said:

Vanilla Eliwood was very early on, and has gotten a lot of complaints.

15 minutes ago, Othin said:

And "give the battle sprite as a reference and let them fill in the details" is exactly what I meant by saying they specify outfit anyway.

I'm not talking about the eyes. I'm talking about the fact that his outfit does not match his battle sprite at all.

They clearly have some liberty in what they're allowed to do to their liking and still be able to get away with it.

Edited by Ice Dragon
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10 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

I'm not talking about the eyes. I'm talking about the fact that his outfit does not match his battle sprite at all.

They clearly have some liberty in what they're allowed to do to their liking and still be able to get away with it.

Conclusion: They weren't as insistent on sticking to the battle sprites earlier on, and have pushed it more since Eliwood.

They clearly have some liberty to fill in details, but they're supposed to use the outfit given in the battle sprite as a basis. Once again, that is exactly my point about them working within constraints.

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4 minutes ago, Othin said:

They clearly have some liberty to fill in details, but they're supposed to use the outfit given in the battle sprite as a basis. Once again, that is exactly my point about them working within constraints.

There are zero constraints (aside from general decency) on what they're allowed to do with the damage art (Bruno's exploding wardrobe), and even the constraints set on the battle sprite don't prevent them from adding fanservicey details like letting musculature show through tight clothes (Performing Arts Shigure, male Dream Corrin) or showing off a little more skin than in the battle sprite (Lilina, Spring Alfonse, female Robin, both Grimas).

The battle sprites are vague enough with details that you can easily nudge some things here or there for effect.

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I noticed the new Bond banner image on my Twitter feed, and it really hammers home the point here- Compare the Corrins. Female Corrins' bare skin area is about the size of Male Corrin's space in the picture. This is a filler banner that'll only show up on your message board once and for a moment every day until the next banner comes around, and even it seems to be trying to sell to that specific female-attracted crowd.

I don't remember if this art has ever been updated, but Spring Festival is even worse. Look at how much of the space Camilla has. Screw the people attracted to men, can they at least shake up the women for the people attracted to different kinds of women? (Don't actually neglect the male people, but c'mon, guys.) 

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15 minutes ago, bethany81707 said:

I noticed the new Bond banner image on my Twitter feed, and it really hammers home the point here- Compare the Corrins. Female Corrins' bare skin area is about the size of Male Corrin's space in the picture. This is a filler banner that'll only show up on your message board once and for a moment every day until the next banner comes around, and even it seems to be trying to sell to that specific female-attracted crowd.

I don't remember if this art has ever been updated, but Spring Festival is even worse. Look at how much of the space Camilla has. Screw the people attracted to men, can they at least shake up the women for the people attracted to different kinds of women? (Don't actually neglect the male people, but c'mon, guys.) 

I can cherry-pick banner art, too!

How about Lon'qu's arm?

https://feheroes.gamepedia.com/File:Banner_Focus_Focus_Heroes_with_Vantage.png

Or how little space Tharja's skin takes up?

https://feheroes.gamepedia.com/File:Banner_Focus_Winters_Envoy.png

And look at how huge Ryoma is compared to the girls!

https://feheroes.gamepedia.com/File:Banner_Focus_Focus_Tempest_Trials_Stepping_into_the_New_Year.png

And on the topic of Ryoma, he's got more skin showing than all three girls combined!

https://feheroes.gamepedia.com/File:Banner_Focus_Hostile_Springs.png

Edited by Ice Dragon
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7 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

I can cherry-pick banner art, too!

Cherry-picking? I've been seeing the Spring Festival one frequently in the course of using Serenes for Radiant Dawn info and seeing it in the news feed right next door and Bond Skills popped up suddenly while my mind was on the topic, but otherwise as a retired Heroes player, I haven't been seeing much banner art to compare to. Perhaps not the time to make the general observation, maybe, but honestly, it's good to see... some degree of males as attraction.

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37 minutes ago, bethany81707 said:

Look at how much of the space Camilla has. Screw the people attracted to men, can they at least shake up the women for the people attracted to different kinds of women? (Don't actually neglect the male people, but c'mon, guys.) 

This is a fair point to make. It seems that when going for seasonals, they pick either a loli or a very curvy lady most of the time. The exceptions to this seem to be Cordelia (twice), Eirika, Lucina, Catria, Lissa and... Mist? The flat chested girls seem to be mostly ignored when they aren't main characters, and I'm being generous and including Eirika who isn't really that flat, and Mist who some could claim belongs in the loli category.

The fact even Severa doesn't have an alt is baffling to me.

 

EDIT: I forgot Valentine Lilina. But even with her there is a shortage of that type of lady on seasonals.

Edited by GrandeRampel
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8 minutes ago, GrandeRampel said:

This is a fair point to make. It seems that when going for seasonals, they pick either a loli or a very curvy lady most of the time. The exceptions to this seem to be Cordelia (twice), Eirika, Lucina, Catria, Lissa and... Mist? The flat chested girls seem to be mostly ignored when they aren't main characters, and I'm being generous and including Eirika who isn't really that flat, and Mist who some could claim belongs in the loli category.

The fact even Severa doesn't have an alt is baffling to me.

 

EDIT: I forgot Valentine Lilina. But even with her there is a shortage of that type of lady on seasonals.

What happened to Oboro? She's a popular Fates character, or at least she was before she got a horrible Heroes representation and became one of those dud pulls. Her, Raigh, Est, Virion, etc all lost from being in Heroes.

I think Valentine's Mist is from PoR and thus underage, and she's probably designed as such in both games despite being 18 in RD. (I think she's actually 18 and not just that vague 'designed as' age they put in the artbook.) Lissa probably also makes the 'designed to appear as, if not necessarily a child' gap.

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4 hours ago, bethany81707 said:

I think Valentine's Mist is from PoR and thus underage, and she's probably designed as such in both games despite being 18 in RD. (I think she's actually 18 and not just that vague 'designed as' age they put in the artbook.) Lissa probably also makes the 'designed to appear as, if not necessarily a child' gap.

Most character ages in PoR and RD are apparent/approximates- the ages which they were designed to look like, but might not actually be. However, Ike is explicitly 17 in PoR, Mist is explicitly 15, Sanaki is explicitly 10, and Oscar is explicitly 24, and Shinon is explicitly only 27. So in RD, Sanaki is explicitly 13, Ike 20, Mist 18, and Shinon 30. Oddly, Boyd's age is now listed as explicitly 21, which would've meant he was explicitly 18 in PoR. And even stranger, Oscar is listed as explicitly 24 again, which means he somehow didn't age at all from PoR.

 

4 hours ago, GrandeRampel said:

and Mist who some could claim belongs in the loli category.

To use her two official artworks:

Spoiler

Mist.jpg

A little hard to tell due to the scarf, but she looks flat.

mist_en.png

Although the orange color keeps it from being too apparent, she has sexually matured in three years. Her hair also appears to have gotten darker. I think there is still a trace of her loli self on the whole, partly because Ike as a big brother keeps her thematically in a little sister role, but not concerning her chest at least.

In height, she is already mature at 15. This PoR height comparison chart shows her to be about the same as Lethe and Ena, and just a little shorter than Elincia and Nephenee.

 

10 hours ago, silverserpent said:

I do remember some documentaries mentioning a Pharaoh that took the throne at a young age and was wed to his older sister so he had an advisor. *shrug*

With Ptolemaic Egypt, I am aware that sons often married sisters and their mothers. Just as the daughters married their brothers and fathers. The fabled Cleopatra who seduced Julius Caesar and Marc Antony was first wed platonically to her father, and then not-platonically to her little brother. Later, Cleopatra had the brat killed, because that is what you did if you were a royal in Ptolemaic Egypt- you murdered your siblings so the throne and power was all yours.

 

10 hours ago, silverserpent said:

Flower boy Nils would be utterly precious. I'd much rather see Groom Inigo/Laslow, though.

Let's get regular Nils in first! No to the Charlotte curse! Rally!

image.png.ce9e5e63f2362595c322f278e51a011a.png

 

Edited by Interdimensional Observer
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6 hours ago, GrandeRampel said:

 

The fact even Severa doesn't have an alt is baffling to me.

 

As a someone who has made it evident about my love for this girl, I must agree with this sentiment. Like seriously come on Severa’s a popular character right? I just wanna see my favorite tsundere girl in a cute outfit and to blush and call me an idiot. Like really is that so much to ask? I mean OG Severa isn’t even in the game yet and that’s what baffles me. She’s the only of the awakening trio without her original form in the game in some way or another.

Then again how long has it been since we’ve had an awakening seasonal. I think the last ones were Cordelia and Noire I believe and that was about 9 months ago.

we’re also missing a lot of the genki girls, kuuderes, derederes(kind of), himideres, etc.

honestly there are very few dere types being represented here. We’ve had two mayaderes in the seasonal pool if you wanna get technical which is something I suppose.

Edited by Ottservia
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3 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

I am amazed at how i am in the otaku comunity since 10+ years and i still find out about new dere types lol. What exactly is a mayadere?

https://the-dere-types.fandom.com/wiki/Mayadere

Or to quote that if you don't want to go there "A mayadere refers to a character who is often a dangerous antagonist of a series, but switches sides after falling in love with another character."

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13 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

I am amazed at how i am in the otaku comunity since 10+ years and i still find out about new dere types lol. What exactly is a mayadere?

Trust me I know that feeling. I only just learned that bakaderes(do we have any of those in FE?) were a thing not too long ago. Honestly when it comes to mayaderes, I normally just lump them in with tsunderes cause they usually act very similar same with himideres.

Edited by Ottservia
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16 hours ago, GrandeRampel said:

Okay, I think a fine line still exists between shotacons and pedos, but let's take what you said as true. If that's the case and the shotacon crowd is mostly male it's weird that they don't pander to them. Maybe it's a relatively small crowd.

There's one last thing I want to add, pal. As someone who has hanged out with the lolicon crowd, I can testify that multiple people have told me that they hate kids, they find them annoying to deal with, ugly, evil little snakes and stuff. But lolis and shotas are a different thing entirely.

Besides the fact that, as Interdimensional Observer said, some lolicons like lolis in a more innocent way and would consider holding hands with them and a kiss on the forehead to be their dream fantasy, I believe that even the ones with more perverted minds shouldn't be so easily considered pedophiles. Or to be more clear, every pedophile is a lolicon, but not every lolicon is a pedophile.

If you are attracted to the real thing, obviously you will like a visual representation of it, but if you are attracted to the visual representation you are not always attracted to the real thing. 

Obviously I can speak only about myself, but you can trust the words of someone who has action figures of the loli twins from Persona 5 and yet doesn't feel anything when meeting the female classmates of his little brother.

I don't know if I can call myself a lolicon when lolis make up about 5% of the girls that catch my interest every anime season, and Summer Camilla is still the one I find the hottest among the JPEGs of Heroes. I think real lolicons are a bit more exclusively interested to lolis. But I still know some real ones, and I find them the more heavily criticized among the already heavily criticized anime fandoms.

It's for this very reason that I don't like when people generalize about a group of people, or consider them unredeemable monsters without a concrete reason. There are some bad apples, of course, but that's true of every group of people. Blaming the entire category for the more creepy and disturbing stuff that's made for them is like blaming the entire anime community for the more disturbing rape hentai that exists. I will repeat till I die that the demonization of every little thing that panders to lolicons is an exaggeration born from assuming the worst whenever in doubt.

Again lolicon literally means sexual attraction to prepubescent girls.  There is nothing innocent about that.  I think what Interdimensional Observer was referring to is more people who generally like super cute sugary things with no sexual association.  

Nothing wrong with having kids in anime, cartoons, TV, movies.  However sexualization of children, 2d or 3d, characters created for lolicon/shotacon yeah that whole category is messed up and should be demonized relentlessly.  They aren't all bad apples, though if any of them act on their attraction they are up there with serial killers, CEOs who use child slavery/laber, as the lowest scum.  Regardless they are certainly broken apples and should seek therapy. 

Oh we can continue this conversation in PM if you want, we probably shouldn't anymore here since it is off topic. 

Edited by Lewyn
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very interesting, at least the overall male-female ratio is quite balanced

honestly, i personally don't care about new heroes' gender, i only care about characters i like, and if intsys doesn't stop adding new ones, that's more than fine by me

if more female characters are added now, this just means that more male characters are gonna be added later on, even though... yes, that's surely quite unfortunate

i just hope we all can get what we want

Edited by Yexin
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4 minutes ago, Lewyn said:

Again lolicon literally means sexual attraction to prepubescent girls.  There is nothing innocent about that.  I think what Interdimensional Observer was referring to is more people who generally like super cute sugary things with no sexual association.  

Nothing wrong with having kids in anime, cartoons, TV, movies.  However sexualization of children, 2d or 3d, characters created for lolicon/shotacon yeah that whole category is messed up and should be demonized relentlessly.  They aren't all bad apples, though if any of them act on their attraction they are up there with serial killers, CEOs who use child slavery/laber, as the lowest scum.  Regardless they are certainly broken apples and should seek therapy. 

Oh we can continue this conversation in PM if you want, we probably shouldn't anymore here since it is off topic. 

Yeah, I agree this is getting really off topic, so it's better to just drop the topic.

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5 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Later, Cleopatra had the brat killed, because that is what you did if you were a royal in Ptolemaic Egypt- you murdered your siblings so the throne and power was all yours

Fun fact, she then married another younger sibling she then also killed. The whole family was nuts. 

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10 hours ago, bethany81707 said:

Her, Raigh, Est, Virion, etc all lost from being in Heroes.

Barely anyone liked her and for good reason before Heroes anyways, if her combined total of just 399 votes in CYL1 is anything to go by.

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1 minute ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Fun fact, she then married another younger sibling she then also killed. The whole family was nuts. 

If only Nohr or Hoshido had a royal family like this! 

Hinoka: "Corrin, I know you're my sibling, but I love you as a man, marry me."

Corrin: "I love you too Hinoka. But can we even get married?"

Hinoka: "Sure! Ikona, my mother, was actually my older sister too. Hoshido has a tradition of this."

Corrin: "Yay!"

 

*Skips ahead a few months, to the two of them in bed together.*

 

Corrin: *Cough, cough* "I can shake this cough, it's only getting worse. I'm starting to burn up too!"

Hinoka: "Don't worry Corrin, I don't think anyone poisoned you. Nope! Just a fever."

Corrin: "Why *cough* would you speak of poison Hinoka? Who would want me dead?*

Hinoka: "I don't know. But I know my mother-sister had a similar illness before she died. No cure I think."

Corrin: "No *cough* cure? There *cough* be one somewhere."

Hinoka: "Well maybe there is, but you look bad enough that you won't make it. A pity."

Corrin: "A pity? Where is the *COUGH!* sorrow my beloved sibling-wife? I don't see a tear in your eyes.*

Hinoka: "About that Corrin, you're only my husband, not my brother. Mikoto left this letter behind, see?" *Waves the letter in front of him*

Corrin: "Why *wheez* didn't you *cough*...... tell me sooner?"

Hinoka: "It didn't make a difference, she still demanded you be regarded as a sibling, and a full Hoshidan royal. She tried to remake you in her image, but Father beyond the pale killed her before she could, hehe. And I've no use for you now. I've your seed inside me, and control your "allies" and territory as best I can. Nip the feeble rival in the bud before going after the greater threats, that's how I fight."

Corrin: "Hinoka, what do you-" *Smothered with a pillow.*

Hinoka: "Corrin, the reason you were "captured" by Nohr was because Mikoto wanted Sumeragi dead and you were his pet project. He thus fled Hoshido with you in tow for refuge in Nohr, but Garon had sided with Mikoto and attacked him. He spared you with the intent of one day claiming Hoshido for himself. Now, goodbye "sibling"."

*Corrin collapses dead of suffocation*

Hinoka: "Now, off to send off the next weakest link- Takumi. Guards! Prepare the body for funerary viewing, add some color to those deoxygenated lips, and hide all traces of my serum. Not that Sakura wouldn't be able to tell the difference!"

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41 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Fun fact, she then married another younger sibling she then also killed. The whole family was nuts. 

royalty back then was just insane in general due to all the in-breeding. Sheesh people complain about incest in FE but when you look at history incest was a very common thing.

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