New Heroes Arrive : Out of Gallia (April 10~)

[NekoKnight]

Just now, Ice Dragon said:

You literally cannot compare against Cherche as a free unit intending to use Brave Axe. Period. Anyone who thinks otherwise is delusional.

You need 43 base Atk as a free unit with Brave Axe+ to have the same Atk as Cherche with Cherche's Axe. That's simply not happening.

Haar is the bulkiest of the Atk/Def-focused axe fliers. His competition is Michalis and Gerome, not Cherche.

 

You're forgetting that she gets an effective +10 Atk and Def and +4 Res from her base kit and transform effect.

That's 59 effective Atk, 36 effective Def, and 23 effective Res.

I'm comparing axe fliers, Cherche first because Haar starts with a Brave Axe. He's a worse brave user and he doesn't have Michalis' prf weapon so I stand by my statement that he got done dirty.

I'm not forgetting those things, I just think her spd investment is absurd and it could be spent elsewhere.

[Garlyle]

Next GHB units arts from the Meet some of the Heroes page, looking cool.

Spoiler

Edited April 9, 2019 by Garlyle

[Ice Dragon]

23 minutes ago, NekoKnight said:

I'm comparing axe fliers, Cherche first because Haar starts with a Brave Axe. He's a worse brave user and he doesn't have Michalis' prf weapon so I stand by my statement that he got done dirty.

Skill Inheritance has existed for two years. There's no reason to compare units by their default weapons if a weapon exists that better fits their stat spread.

Compared to Michalis with refined Hauteclere, he trades +10 damage on Special activation for +4 HP, +1 Atk, and +5 Def with Slaying Axe+ [Def]. That's a rather fair trade.

People keep complaining about power creep, but the moment a character is implemented that isn't power creep, even by a little bit, it's suddenly "done them dirty". You guys just really want something to complain about, don't you.

 

17 minutes ago, Garlyle said:

Next GHB units arts from the Meet some of the Heroes page, looking cool.

Gah. I've been refreshing the page every few minutes, and then it gets updated while I'm busy writing up angry words.

Tsuuuuuuuuun~

Edited April 9, 2019 by Ice Dragon

[NekoKnight]

1 minute ago, Ice Dragon said:

People keep complaining about power creep, but the moment a character is implemented that isn't power creep, even by a little bit, it's suddenly "done them dirty". You guys just really want something to complain about, don't you.

Not really. I like interesting units and Haar is not one. I have Cherche and Michalis already and Haar doesn't even have good SI.

[Garlyle]

6 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Gah. I've been refreshing the page every few minutes, and then it gets updated while I'm busy writing up angry words.

Oh, I got the images before I saw the pages. Seems like they updated the front as well now.

[XRay]

48 minutes ago, NekoKnight said:

Not really. I like interesting units and Haar is not one. I have Cherche and Michalis already and Haar doesn't even have good SI.

As a Def tank, Haar with Slaying Axe [Def] is better than Michalis with Hauteclere [Def]. Haar got HP+2, Atk+1, Spd-1, Def+1, and Res-1. Spd-1 is a good thing for activating higher cooldown Specials, and Res-1 does not matter if Haar specializes as a Def tank.

Hauteclere [special] is worse than Hauteclere [Def] as an Enemy Phase Weapon, since the best offense is a good defense for Enemy Phase units.

[NekoKnight]

2 hours ago, XRay said:

As a Def tank, Haar with Slaying Axe [Def] is better than Michalis with Hauteclere [Def]. Haar got HP+2, Atk+1, Spd-1, Def+1, and Res-1. Spd-1 is a good thing for activating higher cooldown Specials, and Res-1 does not matter if Haar specializes as a Def tank.

Hauteclere [special] is worse than Hauteclere [Def] as an Enemy Phase Weapon, since the best offense is a good defense for Enemy Phase units.

You missed the point of my post. I already have a Michalis so I have no reason to invest a bunch of resources into Haar so he may be marginally better at a specific build. I prefer the Special refine for Hauteclere anyway.

IS didn't do Haar fans any favors which is regrettable as he's quite popular. 

[Thane]

Will Mordecai have a neutral defense of 42? I'm in awe of the size of this lad.

[sturdyimpact]

51 minutes ago, Thane said:

Will Mordecai have a neutral defense of 42? I'm in awe of the size of this lad.

Yup, and a def superboon would take his def even further, giving him 46 def when he has his weapon equipped.

I can't wait to see what people will be concocting for him. A simple Bonfire proc would be able to give 21 dmg at the very least. Now that's scary.

[Anacybele]

8 hours ago, XRay said:

I do not remember Laguz having any official or "correct" colors. Dark tomes, light tomes, bows, daggers, manaketes, and Laguz had no color until Heroes came along, so any color feels just as right as colorless.

Dude, it's called an opinion. I had posted this earlier saying I felt Ranulf should've been blue, Lethe green, Caineghis red, and Mordecai colorless. You don't have to agree.

8 hours ago, XRay said:

If it makes you guys feel any better, all beast cavalry comes with an innate Atk/Def/Res+4 (it is technically foe's Atk/Def-4) on top of their Atk+2 built into their Weapon when transformed, so they basically have Sturdy-Mirror Impact, so Ranulf's Atk is actually pretty decent compared to other units.

Yeah, I never said it wasn't workable (so long as he doesn't have -Atk), it's just lower than we thought.

8 hours ago, NoirCore said:

...Ana, we're on the forums of Serenes Forest, where there are and have been scripts to PoR and RD on the site for years. You don't know? If you remember the dialogue, then you can easily find it and link me to it (if you remember the exact words, like "royal", click on each chapter and CTRL+F to find the text). When people ask for a source, they don't expect only your word; that doesn't count as proof, at least in this situation. That's basically saying "well x said this, trust me" minus actually saying the "trust me", and I'd rather see the dialogue for myself.

Of course I know. Problem is, I don't remember exactly what parts of the games this information comes from, I just remember that it's there. I'd have to search a bunch of different chapter scripts for what I'm looking for because I don't know which one to search and that takes a lot of time.

[Diovani Bressan]

After seeing their stats, I am not sure if we will have a demotion this banner... For stats, Renulf could be the demoted unit, but Dual Rally+ will make him keep the 5* status, and Mordecai has a not strong skillset, but his stats are pretty good.

[NoirCore]

@AnacybeleLike I said, Ctrl+F and type the words "laguz" and "royals" when you click on a chapter script. Saves a bunch more time.

And hey; sometimes if you want to prove something, you gotta dig into that extra effort to find the evidence.

Edit: Also, "first his color is wrong" sounds WAY too matter-of-factly to merely just state a trivial opinion, and blatantly comes off as you claiming this is not morally right when put into an "IS is doing so much wrong" rant. No "I think", not even the weak "imo", nothing like that was in your post. "Just your opinion" or not, I don't blame XRay at all for reacting as they did when your word choice suggested otherwise.

Edited April 9, 2019 by NoirCore

[Anacybele]

12 minutes ago, NoirCore said:

Edit: Also, "first his color is wrong" sounds WAY too matter-of-factly to state your opinion, and blatantly comes off as you claiming this is not morally right when put into an "IS is doing so much wrong" rant. No "I think", not even the weak "imo", nothing like that was in your post. "Just your opinion" or not, I don't blame XRay at all for reacting as they did when your word choice suggested otherwise.

I said it that way because of the previous post I pointed out where I had listed my preferred colors for them. But sorry anyway, maybe that post got too buried or something.

EDIT: This is the post, btw: https://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?/topic/87012-new-heroes-arrive-out-of-gallia-april-10~/&do=findComment&comment=5421966

Edited April 9, 2019 by Anacybele

[NoirCore]

1 minute ago, Anacybele said:

I said it that way because of the previous post I pointed out where I had listed my preferred colors for them. But sorry anyway, maybe that post got too buried or something.

 

12 hours ago, Anacybele said:

IS has done him so wrong, I'm getting disappointed. First his color is wrong, then his voice seems off as well, now this. :/

No matter how you said it before, keep it consistently clear that it's just your opinion. Knowing what you said before does not excuse saying your opinion so matter-of-factly. If anything, it makes it look like your preference turned into "this is morally wrong and I won't think otherwise" and not a simple trivial opinion anymore.

[Anacybele]

Just now, NoirCore said:

No matter how you said it before, keep it consistently clear that it's just your opinion. Knowing what you said before does not excuse saying your opinion so matter-of-factly. If anything, it makes it look like your preference turned into "this is morally wrong and I won't think otherwise" and not a simple trivial opinion anymore.

Yes, I understand now, you didn't need to repeat it. But thanks.

[TheWildestCat]

They added more beast units (Yes.) Though ain't going to get anyone. (Stupid free to play luck).

[Interdimensional Observer]

4 hours ago, Thane said:

Will Mordecai have a neutral defense of 42? I'm in awe of the size of this lad.

To be fair, Tigers are supposed to be the tanky, although the Lions in RD are better everywhere.

In both PoR and RD, in comparison to Muarim (and Kyza), Mordecai is the physically more durable one. And to be precise, in RD, by margins that can be slight or large:

• Mordecai HP/Lck/Def, and is last in Spd.
• Muarim wins Str/Skl/Res (although it is still a mere 10 unshifted/20 shifted at the cap), coming in second in Spd and last in HP.
• Kyza wins just Spd, and is last in Str. In PoR, Mordecai wins HP/Str/Lck/Def, Muarim Skl/Spd/Res.

Lastly, in PoR, Mordecai has 16 base Def, 32 shifted, which is something a Beorc needs to be tier 3 to reach. You can steal a Dracoshield in 2-F and buy one in 3-3, just one can bump Mordy to 36, and both brings him to a monstrous 40. BEXP is very likely to provide Def procs too. Mordecai is terribly slow, he lacks that so valuable 1-2 range Beorc have, and has to deal with the transformation gauge, these are all serious faults. But RD Mordecai does have very strong tanking from the start, he's just more a wall than a tank- he'll take the pain well, but he just doesn't shoot back as well as you'd want him to.

 

12 hours ago, Anacybele said:

Yeah, it doesn't make sense for Ranulf to have such low Atk. I expected him to have higher Atk than Lethe, but lower Spd. IS has done him so wrong, I'm getting disappointed. First his color is wrong, then his voice seems off as well, now this. :/

 

Just because I feel like providing comparisons now that I've done the Tigers.

In PoR at level 20:

• Lethe wins Spd by less than a full point. Wins Res by 3, Lck by ~7. Does have a gargantuan availability lead though and is good in the midgame.
• Ranulf wins everywhere else statistically.

In RD at level 40:

• Lethe barely wins HP by .2 of a point, hitting its 65 cap while Ranulf does not. Hits Def cap, but it's lower than Ranulf's uncapped Def due to gender class differences. Hits 20 Spd cap, but later than Lyre. Second best Res and Str. Has worst Skl and Lck.
• Lyre wins Spd, hits Skl cap sooner than Ranulf so wins that too. Has 1 point of Res over Lethe and falling one 1.1 short of the 16 unshifted cap. Beats Lethe in Lck by 1 point. Has worst HP by 7 points, worst Def by 2-3, and is worst in Str by .6 of a point. 
• Ranulf wins Str by 2-3. Wins Def by 1. Wins Lck, caps at 30, by 2-3 points. 2nd place in HP and Skl. Loses Spd by .1 of a point. Loses Res by ~4.

 

10 hours ago, Kaden said:

Thanks for the post.

You're welcome!

And to be precise about Stefan's PoR joining strength. He comes in Chapter 15, around the point your units should be promoting, you should have you team fully promoted by the time the four-battle-long Chapter 17 is over as a guideline.

Stefan comes as a Level 8 Swordmaster. His bases are: 38 HP, 19 Str, 27 Skl,  25 Spd, 5 Lck, 12 Def, and 9 Res.

His Str and Spd are 5 off their caps, which he'll hit with 50/55 growths, he is only 2 off Skl and is certain to nail it too. His Lck is awful, but his Res ends tied with Mia's for the highest, and he loses to Zihark in Def by just 1 point on average, which is a point more than Mia, and 3 over Lucia's Def. Lucia, despite coming later at Level 12, has worse bases everywhere but Luck and Magic- a fairly useless stat for a physical unit sans using the one-of-kind Sonic Sword and Runesword.

So in other words, Stefan's super bases in PoR are matched by growths that make him outside of Lck, comparable to everyone else.

What keeps him from breaking PoR in two is the lack of a mount, absolutely not Genealogy or Binding Blade necessary here , but they're just good in this game even with much smaller maps than those two. And more importantly- Stefan is locked to Swords, in a game where Swords don't have common 1-2 range and it's a good thing to have for smashing things on the enemy phase.

 

RD Stefan comes at tier 3, being a Part 4 unit. This doesn't mean much in itself, Oliver also comes as one, despite not being canonically strong at all or anything other than avarice and a joke. However, while Oliver is pretty useless, a healer with bad offense and a mere 20 base Spd when the cap for all tier 3 units is at least 30, and like Stefan his usability is restricted to the five-battles-long final battle.

However, Stefan does have amazing bases yet again. As a level 8 Trueblade this time (the numbers to the right are the caps, the left his bases), he has: 53/55 HP, 27/32 Str, 37/40 Skl, 36/40 Spd, 20/30 Lck, 21/26 Def, and 16/24 Res. With 350 in total growths, he caps everything but the Lck (15% growth), comes .2 off the Def cap, and falls just 2 short of Res at 20/20/20. (Magic excluded, Magic-using physical weapons don't exist anymore, so it's even more of a junk stat for him). 

So in other words, Oliver is a healbot poor at anything else, Stefan comes with Endgame-ready bases and growths to equalize with all the rivals you've had to invest stuff in the entire game. You get two SS Swords in RD, so if you want or need someone to use the second, Stefan, who even brings one of those swords, is a mighty good choice. He is like FE6 Karel from a gameplay perspective I could say, if lacking for legendarily unparalleled growths lasting but one level up.

 

12 hours ago, Medeus said:

The fact that Skrimir, Ena, Nasir and Kurthnaga aren't popular will always be disappointing to me. Skrimir as you said has a good arc and the other three have some of the strongest characters of the franchises different dragon tribes, they really should get more love.

Ena is good as a character in FE9, and not bad in RD either, if a bit less important there I think. She is also beautiful her own way, and is rather uniquely a female dragon who isn't a little girl.

Kurthnaga I like as well, even if his RD mini-development arc is rushed into the end of Part 3 and some of Part 4.

And Nasir is just a cool guy, both visually and as a person. A mature-ish character who certainly can appeal to those not into bishonens and lolis and an army of other bright youths. I like him. He is our lone White Dragon. And if he gets a stand-in for White Pool in a slot, well he's at least going to be decent fodder for those who don't like him.

Goldoa might not be as developed as one would wish, but it did have than the mostly dead dragon tribes of prior FE have had, and have largely stayed even since- a low bar admittedly. They a little more grounded in reality than the other dragons have been, if still rarefied and extremely powerful.

 

1 hour ago, Anacybele said:

Of course I know. Problem is, I don't remember exactly what parts of the games this information comes from, I just remember that it's there. I'd have to search a bunch of different chapter scripts for what I'm looking for because I don't know which one to search and that takes a lot of time.

I had already dug up one of those lines for you. And explained why it isn't the best barometer of how strong Ranulf is in the context of the rest of Tellius.

This said, to find another from Blood Runs Red:

Giffca
A warrior such as you, wounded? Did a beorc give you that bruise? [No, the Black Knight]
Giffca can be kind obviously, so I wouldn't say this is a line outright extolling Ranulf. And it doesn't provide that much information. 

 

There is also the fact that Ranulf was with Caineghis the night of Greil's death. As this from the same chapter points out.

Ranulf
I saw you that night...Standing in the light of the full moon. The night you murdered Sir Greil.

Black Knight
Ha ha! So you were the one traveling with the beast king, eh? Interesting. By measuring his aide's strength, I will naturally learn more of the king's true power.

Ranulf
Hate to tell you this, but my king is not to be measured against the likes of me. He is far beyond that.
Why Ranulf was with Caineghis might be a sign of strength, but it could also have something to do with the fact Ranulf was deployed to Gebal Castle at the end of Chapter 7, where Ike and co. took up temporary residence. So Ranulf going with Caineghis could be to have a guide very recently familiar with how to get there.

 

Although the fact Ranulf was sent to rescue Princess Crimea's bodyguards from harm, and that he continued to work with them, and then became Skrimir's aide in RD, do all indicate good abilities. It just doesn't provide conclusive and defined evidence of his power levels vis a vis others. It's like saying with know Douglas is strong being one of Etruria's top three generals, but how he compares with Murdock or Perceval or anyone else, we cannot tell so easily. 

Nor have I found a line directly stating to the effect "strongest of all Cats". He does some impressive stuff in both games, and if there was a stronger Cat, you'd think they'd be fighting with us or at the least named. But this doesn't amount to an outright declaration of strength.

[GrandeRampel]

On 8/4/2019 at 12:44 PM, Anacybele said:

I think they picked the wrong colors for these guys, btw. I think it should've been:

Ranulf - blue

Lethe - green

Caineghis - red

Mordecai - colorless

I would like to add that there is a little problem even with your original post.

Even when giving your opinion, you are supposed to explain the reasoning behind it. It's what you did when arguing why certain legendary heroes are not the right element for their character, such as Ryoma.

Here you did none of that, you simply stated he should have been blue.

You could have explained why, by comparing him with Nailah, Naesala and Panne, who are also blue and say he has some elements in common with them, therefore making him also blue.

Or you could have compared him to Kaden and Reyson, who are green to explain why he shouldn't be like them.

You could have also stated that he should be blue because of the color of his fur, and it would have been an acceptable reason. But you gave us no reason at all.

[kirauza343]

What I’m getting from all this Haar debate is that it’s impressive that Cherche’s statline is still so optimized when she was a 3-4* launch unit (how many other units can still say they’re the best at their role since launch?). The Prf Brave Axe of course helps but even before that/without it her spread still holds up really well. Stat wise I don’t have a problem at all with Haar because that added bulk can help him stand out, but I do wish there was something more interesting about his kit. Yes Brave Axe and Guard suit him based on the source material but a Prf to help him stand out would’ve been nice or at least better fodder.

Lethe’s spread though is gorgeous and I’m quickly going from “she’d be nice to have” to “I really want her” and the six orbs I have to my name are crying already.

[Humanoid]

Statline is fine, passives are fine. The main disappointment with GHB units that don't come with a Prf weapon is that they now join the queue for a new weapon, which means they compete against all sorts of other units both summonable and from GHBs/TTs/etc, and when the time comes, you have to spend Dew on them. Contrast to someone like Aversa who comes feature-complete in terms of her weapon and it's no contest.

At least give generic brave weapons a refine already, geez.

[Diovani Bressan]

I will use all the tickets on the colorless orbs. Maybe I can get Caineghis...

[Rinco]

1 minute ago, Diovani Bressan said:

I will use all the tickets on the colorless orbs. Maybe I can get Caineghis...

I'm on this plan as well. Maybe I'll spend orbs on possible 2nd colorless orbs on the circles where I use the tickets, but I don't know yet. I'll go with my feeling tomorrow.

[Diovani Bressan]

2 minutes ago, Rinco said:

I'm on this plan as well. Maybe I'll spend orbs on possible 2nd colorless orbs on the circles where I use the tickets, but I don't know yet. I'll go with my feeling tomorrow.

I am planning to summon on the colorless orbs in the same circle as well. Since we have 1 free summon and 4 tickets, I will have 5 circles to try to get him. After this, I will not spend any more orbs.

[Alkaid]

Haar is basically just Gerome again, which is pretty sad. Outside of favoritism it seems like there's no reason to bother with him. Gerome already came at 5* and has a less common weapon he can just keep for anti-cav AA use. If you want a defensive GHB axe flier, Michalis is better and has a prf and Cherche is vastly superior for an actual Brave Axe build with her prf. Poor Haar needs to be both promoted and get a weapon replacement. That said, he's not bad, just nothing special or interesting. Even the fodder's not that great.

And yeah, it's kind of looking like no demotes again after seeing the stats. Mordecai didn't seem like a clear demote to begin with thanks to his Beast Exp skill, but now with those stats he seems even less so. Maybe Ranulf for being a "worse Kaden"? Still not seeming too likely.

[Tree]

57 minutes ago, kirauza343 said:

What I’m getting from all this Haar debate is that it’s impressive that Cherche’s statline is still so optimized when she was a 3-4* launch unit (how many other units can still say they’re the best at their role since launch?). The Prf Brave Axe of course helps but even before that/without it her spread still holds up really well. Stat wise I don’t have a problem at all with Haar because that added bulk can help him stand out, but I do wish there was something more interesting about his kit. Yes Brave Axe and Guard suit him based on the source material but a Prf to help him stand out would’ve been nice or at least better fodder.

Lethe’s spread though is gorgeous and I’m quickly going from “she’d be nice to have” to “I really want her” and the six orbs I have to my name are crying already.

Yeah, Cherche (and Gerome) with a regular Brave Axe+ and neutral IVs would still be better than Haar due to the extra point of attack (38 vs. 37). They consider even a single attack stat point significant on brave weapons because Cherche's Axe attack refine only adds one point instead of the normal two that most melee weapons offer. The fact that she's a original 3*-4* unit and has an upgraded brave weapon only makes the comparison worse. The discrepancy would be more justifiable if she were a recent 5*.

39 minutes ago, Humanoid said:

Statline is fine, passives are fine. The main disappointment with GHB units that don't come with a Prf weapon is that they now join the queue for a new weapon, which means they compete against all sorts of other units both summonable and from GHBs/TTs/etc, and when the time comes, you have to spend Dew on them. Contrast to someone like Aversa who comes feature-complete in terms of her weapon and it's no contest.

At least give generic brave weapons a refine already, geez.

I agree. Although I'm a little surprised that they gave him both mediocre stats and a weapon that doesn't really work that well with them, considering that Haar is a very popular character. The other units in his class have areas of specialization (e.g. [+def] Beruka). Due to lack of IVs, a poorly matched weapon, and no notable skills, he isn't really worth the grail cost. Requiring Dew and a long wait for a "potential" weapon upgrade is disappointing. His art is good though.

4 minutes ago, Alkaid said:

Haar is basically just Gerome again, which is pretty sad. Outside of favoritism it seems like there's no reason to bother with him. Gerome already came at 5* and has a less common weapon he can just keep for anti-cav AA use. If you want a defensive GHB axe flier, Michalis is better and has a prf and Cherche is vastly superior for an actual Brave Axe build with her prf. Poor Haar needs to be both promoted and get a weapon replacement. That said, he's not bad, just nothing special or interesting. Even the fodder's not that great.

And yeah, it's kind of looking like no demotes again after seeing the stats. Mordecai didn't seem like a clear demote to begin with thanks to his Beast Exp skill, but now with those stats he seems even less so. Maybe Ranulf for being a "worse Kaden"? Still not seeming too likely.

It is rather sad. There were complaints about Rutger, but he got very good stats for his class and an average weapon that is at least somewhat complementary to them. If Idunn had been released as a GHB infantry unit with Dark Breath and Garon's stats, I imagine that there would have been a lot of disappointment even though she'd still be a decent unit after a lot of investment. She wouldn't really be worth grails though, as Garon or Adult Tiki would be a far better investment. I like Haar, so I'll probably still spend the grails. Not sure what skills to give him though.

I think Mordecai might demote since Beast Exp isn't considered as valuable as the Valor skills. His weapon and stats are very good though.