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Is a FE plot/game better if it leans towards comedy or drama?


Corrobin
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A comedy-based FE could work as a parody. Alternately, as an introductory entry before the mainline stuff. (Wait...that's FEH.)

For the mainline stuff, it would be mostly drama. And a lot of political drama and backstory. Outside of Tellius and Jugdral (which I haven't played), only Elibe seemed to have come anywhere near this with its more extensive world-building. The lighter moments can be moments when people recoup after a major victory leading to a region being liberated - similar to American/British troops enjoying a day of sightseeing in Paris after liberating it in WWII. Or maybe some gallows humor amidst the fighting, just as a way to keep morale up. Something that makes sense in the setting.

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I'd say that it's best when it has a bit of both, and that it knows when to be funny and when to be serious. @redtutel mentioned Avatar: The Last Airbender as a great example, and there are many other fantastic stories that one can pick that know when to be serious and when to be lighthearted. Here's just a few:

  • One Punch Man: it's a very lighthearted show overall, but in those moments where it needs to get serious (Saitama's depression, the Deep Sea King arc, and the aftermath of Saitama vs Boros being good examples), it gets serious.
  • Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood: almost the inverse of One Punch Man in this regard; it is very serious overall, but it knows how and where to be lighthearted.
  • Any good Bond movie has elements of both; even Casino Royale.

For some video game examples: Valkyria Chronicles 4 and Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance are very serious fantasy war stories that know how and where to have humour and levity sprinkled in.

Having both means that there is contrast, and that contrast can make both that bit more poignant. For example, in Path of Radiance, Muarim's support conversations that mention his past are all very serious and heartbreaking, and yet, his support conversation with Largo is one of the funniest moments in all of Fire Emblem and is both hilarious, and heartwarming when you consider that this is a laguz and a beorc bonding over something as basic as comparing muscle strength while also creating an entertaining and lighthearted event for the whole army to see. The humour helps with the seriousness, and the seriousness helps with the humour. 

However, there naturally is a risk to mixing comedy and drama that really pops up when poorly-written works try to imitate that style: if any humour or drama gets misplaced, it can come across as tone-deaf and ultimately ring hollow to much of the audience. This is one of the most common criticisms of films like The Last Jedi and a lot of phase 2 MCU films. It is also a criticism that can be levied at Fire Emblem Fates to some extent, but even the less well-written FE games manage to avoid this issue for the most part. 

So I guess what I'm saying is, an FE game is generally better when it has both comedy and drama, so long as it knows how and where to use which one. 

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FE always had its moments of comic relief, the problem with Fates and Awakening is that they don't really do it well. At its worst, Awakening was tropey anime slapstick, but Fates went full "lol teh random" at times and while neither is necessarily a bad thing, they clashed horribly with the games' darker themes.

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  • 1 month later...

When I played Genealogy of the Holy War (which was very recent) I really appreciated how dark it was. I mean, it made me sad and hate a lot (not hating the writing), but I thought it had an excellent story. That kind of drama I find to be more effective than like comedy. But I don't think Fire Emblem has strayed away from being dark at all. Fates for example was pretty dark, especially near the end. Not as much in Revelation though. I think most, if not all, of the Fire Emblem games implements some tragedy along the way. I do appreciate that. I find a lot more value in that than comedy. Comedy for Fire Emblem I prefer in barracks/support conversations, not quite as much in the actual story or plot. An occasional laugh here and there certainly isn't a bad thing though.

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Honestly, I can't stand the recent "zany" direction awakening and fates have in areas such as supports, where you'd go from a story that has a serious tone to slapstick comedy and memes. I hate it and I wish fire emblem would go back to the style of the tellius/jugdral games and echoes again. Yes stories have to have some light heartedness to not burn out most fans...but the amount of light heartedness in those two games were radically different I'd argue to previous games for the most part. Characters like Virion, Sully, Elise, Camilla, etc... were all annoying to me, I hated their "playful"/one note personalities and I felt it ruined the serious tone those games tried to build up at various points.

If we look at a character like Jill in Path of radiance, she goes from a typical laguz hating daein soldier, to being confused after chapter 11 seeing the dragons help Ike and crew, to even being able to murder her own father since he's stopping you from getting to ashnard. Plenty of characters are like this in the tellius games, and they use the main story itself and base conversations (rather than solely supports) to do this. No, not every character was Shakespearean tiered as Ilyana, Makalov and others also felt one-note and boring...but with the tellius games I felt like they were the exception not the norm. I'd take a Jill over a Sully, Virion, Camilla, Ricken, etc... any day!

In fact I also have something else to say...I hate how fire emblem three houses is being advertised based on the avatar and monastery, rather than the main story and gameplay. And the fact that so many people are begging for the series to be "more like Persona" is depressing when I seem to be one of the only ones who wants fire emblem to stay traditional fire emblem, and not focus on the avatars, marriages and child units. Just because something is popular and makes a lot of money, doesn't mean your old fans are all happy with what you're doing. Lootboxes are also popular, but according to some other peoples' logic we should just accept them solely because people are ok with them, as they keep making lots of money?

Three houses when you look in detail at it's mechanics and story, seems amazing!
And it's baffling why there's been little marketing for the game and the ones we did get, focus on the monastery and avatar -_-


 

Edited by Dinar87
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5 hours ago, Dinar87 said:

Honestly, I can't stand the recent "zany" direction awakening and fates have in areas such as supports, where you'd go from a story that has a serious tone to slapstick comedy and memes. I hate it and I wish fire emblem would go back to the style of the tellius/jugdral games and echoes again. Yes stories have to have some light heartedness to not burn out most fans...but the amount of light heartedness in those two games were radically different I'd argue to previous games for the most part. Characters like Virion, Sully, Elise, Camilla, etc... were all annoying to me, I hated their "playful"/one note personalities and I felt it ruined the serious tone those games tried to build up at various points.

I think you might be generalizing FE13/FE14 supports a little too much here. While it might be harder to find them, but those games do have what most people would consider to be good supports in them. And I disagree with the stories being more light toned, I would use a lot of words and terms to describe the stories of those two games, but "light hearted" won't be in the mix. I really can't see how FE13/FE14 had "radically" more light hearted stories than games like FE9/FE10/FE15

 

6 hours ago, Dinar87 said:

In fact I also have something else to say...I hate how fire emblem three houses is being advertised based on the avatar and monastery, rather than the main story and gameplay. And the fact that so many people are begging for the series to be "more like Persona" is depressing when I seem to be one of the only ones who wants fire emblem to stay traditional fire emblem, and not focus on the avatars, marriages and child units. Just because something is popular and makes a lot of money, doesn't mean your old fans are all happy with what you're doing. Lootboxes are also popular, but according to some other peoples' logic we should just accept them solely because people are ok with them, as they keep making lots of money?

Well, both the monastery and the avatar are apart of the gameplay, so....

And I don't think people are begging for this series to be like Persona,  but it's more like FE16 itself is giving them Persona vibes, which most people are fine/happy with looking at how the Persona games are considered to be good.

Also while I love "traditional" FE games, IS had to change things up to save this series from dying basically. I don't think avatars, marriages, and child units are inherently bad, and I fully believe that IS could do it right, I honestly think they already had in FE13, but I know you might argue otherwise. But in all honestly it's not on IS that some of it's old fan-base can't handle the IDEA of having any of those things in their games anymore.

6 hours ago, Dinar87 said:

Three houses when you look in detail at it's mechanics and story, seems amazing!
And it's baffling why there's been little marketing for the game and the ones we did get, focus on the monastery and avatar -_-


FE16 has barley been advertised, but from what HAS been shown, it wasn't just the avatar and the monastery. I'm pretty sure they showed some mechanics in the second trailer. And as far as story goes, I'm pretty sure that most people that would want to buy FE16 would first look into the mechanics, not the story. So it can be a bit pointless to go into too many details about it, and even if they did that, they would risk spoiling it, which is also not good. So them not focusing on it here makes a lot of sense to me. 

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6 hours ago, Dinar87 said:

Honestly, I can't stand the recent "zany" direction awakening and fates have in areas such as supports, where you'd go from a story that has a serious tone to slapstick comedy and memes. I hate it and I wish fire emblem would go back to the style of the tellius/jugdral games and echoes again. Yes stories have to have some light heartedness to not burn out most fans...but the amount of light heartedness in those two games were radically different I'd argue to previous games for the most part. Characters like Virion, Sully, Elise, Camilla, etc... were all annoying to me, I hated their "playful"/one note personalities and I felt it ruined the serious tone those games tried to build up at various points.

If we look at a character like Jill in Path of radiance, she goes from a typical laguz hating daein soldier, to being confused after chapter 11 seeing the dragons help Ike and crew, to even being able to murder her own father since he's stopping you from getting to ashnard. Plenty of characters are like this in the tellius games, and they use the main story itself and base conversations (rather than solely supports) to do this. No, not every character was Shakespearean tiered as Ilyana, Makalov and others also felt one-note and boring...but with the tellius games I felt like they were the exception not the norm. I'd take a Jill over a Sully, Virion, Camilla, Ricken, etc... any day!

ehhh I'm gonna have to disagree with you on this one. I think you're overgeneralizing a bit. I mean Sully, Elise, and Camilla I can kind of grant but Virion is where I'm gonna have to disagree immensely. To say Virion is a one-dimensional character just shows you have never read a single one of his supports otherwise you wouldn't be saying that. He's a much deeper character than people give him credit for. He's a flat arc character handled very well. He's the kind of character that helps other characters develop rather than he himself and that's kind of the point. I might more of his supports to get a better idea as to the core of his character but he is far from one-dimensional and cliche. Also there's a reason I like Severa so much and it goes far beyond the fact that she's "just a tsundere". The depth of these characters is there you just gotta care to look for it. Also as far as I can tell the 3ds titles are no less dark than the gba titles. Maybe not as dark as say FE4 and 5 but no other game in the franchise has gone that dark. I mean a good story is a good story regardless of it's tone. It all depends on how well it conveys the messages and ideas it wants to convey. 

 

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10 hours ago, Dinar87 said:

If we look at a character like Jill in Path of radiance, she goes from a typical laguz hating daein soldier, to being confused after chapter 11 seeing the dragons help Ike and crew, to even being able to murder her own father since he's stopping you from getting to ashnard. Plenty of characters are like this in the tellius games, and they use the main story itself and base conversations (rather than solely supports) to do this. No, not every character was Shakespearean tiered as Ilyana, Makalov and others also felt one-note and boring...but with the tellius games I felt like they were the exception not the norm. I'd take a Jill over a Sully, Virion, Camilla, Ricken, etc... any day!

First Jill get like 4-5 base.conversation that are just about her and a chapter that is very personal to her. 90% of tellius characters does not get all of that and RD characters barely get anything at all. Jill is easily one of the top 5 best characters in the duology(and imo is yhe best Character in FE period) so comparing her to the likes of Camilla is loaded as hell. You should compare someone like Makalov or any of RD literal whos to Camilla.

That said, Tellius is just better because it don't rely uniquely on supports. There are several deep characters in Awakening, but you need to read the right supports to get that. Wich means either hours of soul crushing grinding, or watching them on Youtube, two things you are not going to do if you are not engaged in the first place. First impressions are extremely important for this kind of games, and Jill has a first impression that gets you hooked, while most fateswekening characters do not. If you looks at Virion conversation you can easily dismiss him as the token womanizer for example, and you can easily lose interest because "Sain did it better anyway", but i can't see Sain having the male Avatar support for example. The authors did a mistake because those aspects of Virion are locked behind optional content, but it's not his fault and are still part of him as a character. 

10 hours ago, Dinar87 said:

In fact I also have something else to say...I hate how fire emblem three houses is being advertised based on the avatar and monastery, rather than the main story and gameplay. And the fact that so many people are begging for the series to be "more like Persona" is depressing when I seem to be one of the only ones who wants fire emblem to stay traditional fire emblem, and not focus on the avatars, marriages and child units. Just because something is popular and makes a lot of money, doesn't mean your old fans are all happy with what you're doing. Lootboxes are also popular, but according to some other peoples' logic we should just accept them solely because people are ok with them, as they keep making lots of money?

Three houses when you look in detail at it's mechanics and story, seems amazing!
And it's baffling why there's been little marketing for the game and the ones we did get, focus on the monastery and avatar -_-

Spoiling the game is not exactly a great idea imo. They are introducing the story by inteoducing most earlygame characters (mid and lategame charcters may spoil things) and every famitsu article has many detail about gameplay.

Because the school is the gameplay. I feel that FE on paper always was part RPG and parr strategy game, but the rpg elements were too downplayed. For example the fact that bases are more important than growths, wich is unthinkable in most RPG were charactes end the games with 10 times the stats they have when they joined. TH is expanding on the army building aspects, making the game more like FFT or Disgaea, so they are focusing on that. 

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On 4/11/2019 at 6:24 AM, vanguard333 said:

I'd say that it's best when it has a bit of both, and that it knows when to be funny and when to be serious. @redtutel mentioned Avatar: The Last Airbender as a great example, and there are many other fantastic stories that one can pick that know when to be serious and when to be lighthearted. Here's just a few:

  • One Punch Man: it's a very lighthearted show overall, but in those moments where it needs to get serious (Saitama's depression, the Deep Sea King arc, and the aftermath of Saitama vs Boros being good examples), it gets serious.
  • Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood: almost the inverse of One Punch Man in this regard; it is very serious overall, but it knows how and where to be lighthearted.

Even One Punch Man's serious moments still play out like affectionate parodies. I DID care about the characters in those moments, but it wasn't what I'd consider heart wrenching or anything like that.

And I love love love FMAB, but they could have reduced the humor by at least half.

It's different for everyone and I can say that I'm wildly inconsistent on what I would consider a good balance of drama and humor but as a rule of thumb, I like things to be at least 95% drama and at most 5% humor (or vice versa). The more the intended tone of a story gets muddled the less immersed I get.

Edited by Slyfox
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29 minutes ago, Slyfox said:

Even One Punch Man's serious moments still play out like affectionate parodies. I DID care about the characters in those moments, but it wasn't what I'd consider heart wrenching or anything like that.

Of course they play out that way; One-Punch Man is parody. That doesn't mean those scenes aren't heart-wrenching. 

Really? Not even, "No one expects much from me. They think a C-Class Hero won't be of much help. I know that better than anyone! […] I'm weak; I know that much. No one has to tell me I stand no chance of beating you; I already know that! …But still; I must try. It's not about winning or losing! It's about me taking you on right here, right now!"

Or maybe even, "You lie; Saitama. You had strength to spare."

47 minutes ago, Slyfox said:

And I love love love FMAB, but they could have reduced the humor by at least half.

Really? I could definitely see one or two jokes get cut or at least toned down (Winry hitting Ed with a wrench is not funny at all) but I feel a lot of the levity was important and even necessary. Considering the main story is the heroes trying to stop a massive conspiracy while trying to find a way to get their body parts back, it needed that humour to keep things from getting too bleak. 

 

51 minutes ago, Slyfox said:

It's different for everyone and I can say that I'm wildly inconsistent on what I would consider a good balance of drama and humor but as a rule of thumb, I like things to be at least 95% drama and at most 5% humor (or vice versa). The more the intended tone of a story gets muddled the less immersed I get.

Funny; I talked about this issue in one of my previous paragraphs (one of the ones you didn't quote); when mixing humour and drama, you need to be careful where you place each so that neither feels tone-deaf. I'd say that, if a story has a clear tone it wants to set on average, it's more than okay for the story to have lighter moments and darker moments; in fact, I'd say it's necessary in order for the story to feel organic. But you do have to be careful about when and where; I do agree with you about that. 

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I like a mixture of both. Start of Awakening is lighthearted. Dealing with monsters/villains as Shepherd and interaction between the members makes those characters more memorable before diving into support conversations, and the tone get more serious as the story escalate til the end of 1st half. After the time skip the tone lightened up a bit as it should be.

FE4 is just a bit too edgy for me. With all its revelation, drama and tragedy, to the point where 2nd half of the game & FE5 just made me feels like "oh no bad things keep happening on the side in this continent what a surprise".

Another game that I think handled drama+comedy well is FE7, the lord trio interaction mixed with the main & side plot makes some pretty compelling story for me to be invested.

As bad as Fates plot is, the overall story isn't so bad. I like when they visit countries/places not related to Nohr & Hoshido. Like Izana's country and beast tribes, it's kind of refreshing and a reminder that there are other factions outside of these two big countries. I like it more than the "all hell breaks loose and the world is ending" tone in other FE, or just RPG games in general. 

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3 hours ago, Flere210 said:

First Jill get like 4-5 base.conversation that are just about her and a chapter that is very personal to her. 90% of tellius characters does not get all of that and RD characters barely get anything at all. Jill is easily one of the top 5 best characters in the duology(and imo is yhe best Character in FE period) so comparing her to the likes of Camilla is loaded as hell. You should compare someone like Makalov or any of RD literal whos to Camilla.

 That said, Tellius is just better because it don't rely uniquely on supports. There are several deep characters in Awakening, but you need to read the right supports to get that. Wich means either hours of soul crushing grinding, or watching them on Youtube, two things you are not going to do if you are not engaged in the first place. First impressions are extremely important for this kind of games, and Jill has a first impression that gets you hooked, while most fateswekening characters do not. If you looks at Virion conversation you can easily dismiss him as the token womanizer for example, and you can easily lose interest because "Sain did it better anyway", but i can't see Sain having the male Avatar support for example. The authors did a mistake because those aspects of Virion are locked behind optional content, but it's not his fault and are still part of him as a character. 

Technically, base conversations are optional content too.

 

13 hours ago, Dinar87 said:

In fact I also have something else to say...I hate how fire emblem three houses is being advertised based on the avatar and monastery, rather than the main story and gameplay. And the fact that so many people are begging for the series to be "more like Persona" is depressing when I seem to be one of the only ones who wants fire emblem to stay traditional fire emblem, and not focus on the avatars, marriages and child units. Just because something is popular and makes a lot of money, doesn't mean your old fans are all happy with what you're doing. Lootboxes are also popular, but according to some other peoples' logic we should just accept them solely because people are ok with them, as they keep making lots of money?

 Three houses when you look in detail at it's mechanics and story, seems amazing!
And it's baffling why there's been little marketing for the game and the ones we did get, focus on the monastery and avatar -_-

Spoiling a game is a very bad move - people take that kind of stuff seriously.

13 hours ago, Dinar87 said:

Honestly, I can't stand the recent "zany" direction awakening and fates have in areas such as supports, where you'd go from a story that has a serious tone to slapstick comedy and memes. I hate it and I wish fire emblem would go back to the style of the tellius/jugdral games and echoes again. Yes stories have to have some light heartedness to not burn out most fans...but the amount of light heartedness in those two games were radically different I'd argue to previous games for the most part. Characters like Virion, Sully, Elise, Camilla, etc... were all annoying to me, I hated their "playful"/one note personalities and I felt it ruined the serious tone those games tried to build up at various points.

 If we look at a character like Jill in Path of radiance, she goes from a typical laguz hating daein soldier, to being confused after chapter 11 seeing the dragons help Ike and crew, to even being able to murder her own father since he's stopping you from getting to ashnard. Plenty of characters are like this in the tellius games, and they use the main story itself and base conversations (rather than solely supports) to do this. No, not every character was Shakespearean tiered as Ilyana, Makalov and others also felt one-note and boring...but with the tellius games I felt like they were the exception not the norm. I'd take a Jill over a Sully, Virion, Camilla, Ricken, etc... any day!

This reeks of exaggeration and overgeneralization imo. As far as I can tell, all in all, Awakening and Fates were no less dark than, say, the GBA games. Mentioning Jugdral did your case no favours whatsoever since I think its story is clearly at one extreme (that being having drama up the wazoo and not enough comedy to balance it out), so I'd rather not see them go the Jugdral route with regard to stories.

Edited by Shadow Mir
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10 hours ago, Ottservia said:

ehhh I'm gonna have to disagree with you on this one. I think you're overgeneralizing a bit. I mean Sully, Elise, and Camilla I can kind of grant but Virion is where I'm gonna have to disagree immensely. To say Virion is a one-dimensional character just shows you have never read a single one of his supports otherwise you wouldn't be saying that. He's a much deeper character than people give him credit for. He's a flat arc character handled very well. He's the kind of character that helps other characters develop rather than he himself and that's kind of the point. I might more of his supports to get a better idea as to the core of his character but he is far from one-dimensional and cliche. Also there's a reason I like Severa so much and it goes far beyond the fact that she's "just a tsundere". The depth of these characters is there you just gotta care to look for it. Also as far as I can tell the 3ds titles are no less dark than the gba titles. Maybe not as dark as say FE4 and 5 but no other game in the franchise has gone that dark. I mean a good story is a good story regardless of it's tone. It all depends on how well it conveys the messages and ideas it wants to convey.

This right here is why Virion is pretty much the only skirt-chaser type character I can stand. Because that's not his entire thing and just something to endear him to the audience with how hilariously often he fails with it. I very much enjoyed his supports with people like the Avatar and Frederick and I was pleasantly surprised by how deep his character actually is. That's the case with pretty much every character in Awakening, though, and it is something Fates failed to replicate in my opinion.

Awakening kept the light-hearted moments to light-hearted scenes and did drama where drama was appropriate, and Echoes used light-hearted moments effectively to show the interpersonal relationships between the characters and thus had them serve as a vehicle for character development. Specific examples include: Gray joking around with Tobin and Alm, showing Clair's somewhat sheltered upbringing through her enthusiastic questions about "manure and stuff", Boey and Mae bickering etc.
I loved Awakening's DLC precisely because of the comedy. It was fittingly comedic, since most of the scenarios are inherently silly in nature. Maribelle raging at a Risen for not robbing her, because it supposedly thought she was "too poor", and Frederick remarking that his "derrière is not worthy" when asked to wear the swimming trunks meant for Chrom will forever be among of my favourite moments in Fire Emblem. But there were also scenarios that entirely lacked any kind of comedic moments (Future Past and the one where you face very powerful Risen in a torture-house, don't remember the name, though) and it was appriopriate, since the tone and setting of those scenarios were pretty dark. Comedy would have just destroyed that.
Fates, especially Conquest, failed in that regard, with one scene in particular standing out: Chapter 18, where Hoshidan and Nohrian Royalty meet in Izumo, there is a scene where Xander and Ryoma engage in a G-rated dick measuring contest. Sure, the scene itself is funny when looked at in a vacuum, but it undermines the tone of the plot and invalidates pretty much the entire conflict, since all the animosities between Hoshido and Nohr - in that moment - are reduced to Xander and Ryoma competing over who is the better-looking between the two. This, to me, is an example of a comedic moment that fell flat on its face, because it didn't serve any purpose besides ruining the already fragile premise of Conquest's central conflict.

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I think I've realized why I feel so strongly against awakening and fates, to the point where I rant online about how "terrible" I subjectively think they are...it's because I miss things like base conversations immensely, and I don't think the support system in games without it in general can appeal to me specifically much without them.  In combination with my personal life being terrible and me feeling dependent on series like fire emblem for comfort, it leads me to doing rants like this.

When I first started with fire emblem awakening, I'd played over 200 hours of it and I was in love with almost everything about it. And then when I played path of radiance and radiant dawn the same thing happened, but then I started to look back on awakening, combined with the fan base's general distaste towards fates and the direction the games seemed to be going in at the time of fates (before we knew about echoes) and I began to hate awakening and fates since as they weren't the style I liked the most, and it was popular to hate on fates, I started thinking like that more and more.

However, while I still far prefer the tellius games to awakening and the gba FEs, I can see in this state of mind that they're not bad games at all, just different from what I prefer. The only one I still feel iffy about is fate's story, but even then I've played over 100 hours of that game just for the gameplay alone from conquest.

I am once again optimistic about three house's story and charcaters because it seems like base conversations (aka talking to others in the monastery and doing side quests) are back and better than ever. If that wasn't enough, it seems characters like Ashe also get some spotlight on them in the main story it seems, so there's that too.

As for the the main topic itself for this thread, I think a balance towards serious, with comedic elements sprinkled inbetween like in echoes, is what I prefer.

Sorry for the drama btw.



 

Edited by Dinar87
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If I had to choose one I suppose I'd go with Drama but I wouldn't want to put the comedy part to the sides. Even FE4, which is considered the darkest FE game you still have some funny dialogue moments that enhance the experience a bit.

 

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