*in before there's a "final ending" where everyone lives happily ever after*

[Flere210]

The characters that dies no matter what exist even in fates(and i personally refuse to aknowledge the xenalogues as anything more than fanservice "what if" scenarios.) If Odessa count, then Mikoto count too.

And iirc no star of destiny dies no matter what, both 1 and 2 have a "bullshit resurrection".

Wich lead to another issue. Videogames are not books. Players have agency and it not necessarily a good thing to take things outside of their control.

Think the Tenpenny Tower quest in fallout 3. It makes perfect sense that two group of prejudiced people would not get along no matter what, but from a player perspective it really suck that every attempt to peacefully solve the problem is going to backfire horribly. 

Both suikoden and fire emblem work on a "Earn your happy ending" model. You can get the golden ending, but it's not easy. To get a character ending you need to make them survive the whole game, wich for a newer player likely mean a lot of resets and frustration. To get the perfect ending you need to do so for every single character(and usually satisfy other objectives). In Suikoden, usually the best ending is tied to whatever you gathered the stars of destiny or not. I don't like the idea of resetting 300 times to keep my favorite character alive just to find out that at the end he became a depressed drunkard. I don't want to go trought the insane hops required to gather the 108 stars just to find out that the destiny can't be changed after all. 

Videogames should allow some control on how the events would unfold, and this necessarily means that if the player want, they can prevent bad stuff from happening. Is Planescape Torment a worse game because it allow the player to prevent most of the party from dying(sure at least one dies, but Scarlet also dies in revelation, so no ending is 100% perfect.)?

Edited April 18, 2019 by Flere210

[vanguard333]

@Kysafen Sounds like you haven't played either of the Tellius games. 

Edited April 18, 2019 by vanguard333

[thecrimsonflash]

8 hours ago, Guest This Guy said:

Fire Emblem could stand to take a queu or a thousand from Suikoden.

 

Good and bad people on both sides, there are characters who will die no matter what, at the end the borders are gonna be redrawn and governments overthrown, etc.

Really all RPGs should take several lessons from Suikoden.

sacred stones had the best story confirmed then.

[eclipse]

Feel free to lock the thread?  SURE~!

(in other words, if you have to state this, it's probably a good idea to keep it to yourself)

[Icelerate]

On 17/04/2019 at 11:37 PM, Ottservia said:

agreed except for the comparison to naruto. Even Naruto ain't that bad about it but seeing as how this isn't the type of thread to discuss that I'm just gonna leave this video here

Naruto may be an underdog for most of the series. But that all changed in the war arc where he's conveniently the guy to have the solutions to all the problems the Shinobi Alliance faces. 

Spoiler

 

Zetsus are undetectable? It's okay because Naruto can detect them and ONLY he can. Muu is about to kill Onoki? It's okay because a Naruto clone popped out of no where to save the day despite Gaara being right there who could have done the same. Temari and co. can't do damage to 3rd Raikage? It's okay because Naruto is even stronger than the COMBINED efforts of more experienced fuuton users despite him splitting his chakra so much with shadow clone jutsu. The God Tree is a huge problem for the Shinobi Alliance? No problem, Naruto casually cuts it down despite his intention was to bisect Madara. Gai about to die because of overusing 8th gate despite it giving certain death? No problem, Naruto gets the ability to circumvent certain death despite not having medical skills like his team mate Sakura. I could go on and on but I don't want to reread the war arc. 

What's worse is that the war was supposed to be about protecting Naruto and Killer Bee yet it quickly turned to Naruto protects everyone else. He was put on the turtle island to prevent him from exposing himself to danger yet he defies the entire shinobi alliance and managed to convince the Raikage in the worst possible way that makes no sense. And how is Naruto rewarded for disobeying authority? By becoming the hero. 

 

Alm being a more special snowflake than Naruto is quite laughable as he doesn't have the same laundry list of special qualities nor carries the entire war effort by himself. If Alm were Naruto, he'd have been able to convince Berkut and Ferdinand to join him most likely and probably wouldn't have to kill Rudolf either and be tormented by doing so. 

Edited April 19, 2019 by Icelerate

[Ottservia]

4 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

Naruto may be an underdog for most of the series. But that all changed in the war arc where he's conveniently the guy to have the solutions to all the problems the Shinobi Alliance faces. 

  Hide contents

 

Zetsus are undetectable? It's okay because Naruto can detect them and ONLY he can. Muu is about to kill Onoki? It's okay because a Naruto clone popped out of no where to save the day despite Gaara being right there who could have done the same. Temari and co. can't do damage to 3rd Raikage? It's okay because Naruto is even stronger than the COMBINED efforts of more experienced fuuton users despite him splitting his chakra so much with shadow clone jutsu. The God Tree is a huge problem for the Shinobi Alliance? No problem, Naruto casually cuts it down despite his intention was to bisect Madara. Gai about to die because of overusing 8th gate despite it giving certain death? No problem, Naruto gets the ability to circumvent certain death despite not having medical skills like his team mate Sakura. I could go on and on but I don't want to reread the war arc. 

 

 

 

 

Alm being a more special snowflake than Naruto is quite laughable as he doesn't have the same laundry list of special qualities nor carries the entire war effort by himself. 

The main difference here is that Naruto was never handed any of that stuff and the narrative makes it very clear that it was his hard work and effort that allowed him to grow(well except for the sixth paths power up but that’s an exception not the rule). Also please don’t give me “he was given the ninetails as a baby” argument cause that argument holds no water for two reasons:

1. He still had to work hard to befriend kurama and use his power.

2. The narrative makes it very clear how much more a hindrance the ninetails is to naruto than it is a benefit.

Also Naruto having the solution to all the problems during the war actually fits really well thematically with his character arc. One of the core aspects of Naruto’s character is the want to be recognized and  feel needed. He wants people to look to him for help, to look up to him rather than down on him and that’s exactly what’s happening so it fits really well. I’ll grant it is a little hamfisted but overall doesn’t contradict any of the narrative’s themes or ideas. 

My main issue with Alm is that he gains all his special abilities not because he worked for it, not because he was a good person, not because he proved himself. It’s because he was born special which is in direct contradiction to the story’s themes of how the station of one’s birth does not determine a man’s worth because with this the narrative is saying it does.

[zuibangde]

Am I the only one that finds it hilarious that people complain about FE games being 'filled with anime tropes'. Newsflash...it's a Japanese game that historically catered towards their Japanese audience more and has always followed anime styles. It IS an 'anime' but in the form of a game.

Also, I'd recommend reading more Japanese literature (not just manga) and you'll realize that world-building isn't as focused on when compared to Western literature. Haruki Murakami's 1Q84 is over 1000 pages long and by the end of the book, I still only had vague ideas of what the parallel universe the story was set in is like.

My point is, your idea of 'quality' world building isn't necessarily important to the eyes of many other people. (Like who REALLY cares about what resources are available between the countries?? Will it affect the story in any way? Will they be invading each other for oil????) 

[zuibangde]

 

 

 

8 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

My main issue with Alm is that he gains all his special abilities not because he worked for it, not because he was a good person, not because he proved himself. It’s because he was born special which is in direct contradiction to the story’s themes of how the station of one’s birth does not determine a man’s worth because with this the narrative is saying it does.

I don't see how Alm's birth contradicts the message at all. You're the one discrediting him because he was born special.

When Lukas came to find Mycen, Alm could've just stayed in the village and not cared but he chose to go against Mycen and left with Lukas as well. Also, Alm does prove himself over and over again. For example, when he insisted on saving Silque even though Lukas said they can't stop to save everyone? Also, if Mathilda dies during her recruitment chapter, you'll see that Clive is super disappointed and upset at himself for trusting Alm (so...Alm does have to work for his recognition). 

Also nowhere does it say that the 'message' of the game can only be shown by the protagonists. Doesn't Gray, Kliff, Tobin and Faye going to war against Rigel with the Deliverance even though they're just villagers convey the message too? (villagers can also help and achieve goals started by Nobles) 

[Ottservia]

@zuibangde okay so because I’m on mobile and serenes is being weird and won’t allow me to quote directly I’m just gonna put my response like this:

Yes, Alm does have to work for his recognition that much I will agree and is a good part about his arc. However my problem is the fucking royal sword. Y’know the legendary sword that can ONLY be wielded by those of royal blood. Yeah that one. It’s one of the best swords both in gameplay and lore and ONLY Alm can wield it. Is it because he proved himself worthy for the sword? Is it because he worked for it? No it’s because he’s fucking royal. No amount of hard work or training would allow him to wield that sword had he not been born royal as shown when Tobin tried to lift it and couldn’t. What this says about the overall narrative is that you HAVE to be of royal birth to be of any worth to wield the special sword. Only royals are worthy of wielding the sword meaning anyone who isn’t is worthless. Do you understand my point here? Then later in the game ONLY Alm can enter the vault containing Falchion because he’s of royal blood. His hard work and determination had literally nothing to do with the fact that he’s the only one at that moment who is able to enter that vault.

on your other point about other characters representing the game’s themes, I’m just gonna quote what I said on the unpopular thread where I ranted about this before

Spoiler

Because Alm is SUPPOSED to be the MAIN catalyst to that theme not gray or tobin because THEY are never really given that much focus. Yes you can make an argument for forscyth and python that much I will agree. However, again, they are never given enough focus within the story to really leave the impact necessary for it to work. And even if you were to make that argument, The game makes it very explicitly clear that these characters will NEVER be on the level of Alm because THEY were not born with the special birthmark to do all the special things that alm does(slaying duma,wielding royal sword, etc.) . Hell, Tobin even says so himself in one of his base conversations. Alm is the focus of this story and as such needs to embody the core themes of this narrative which he doesn't. The story presents him as a part of that conflict and as an important piece into exploring that conflict but by the very nature of how alm's character is written he cannot do that. It just leads to a very muddled message of "only the chosen one can do anything of worth in this world but just don't be dick about it" 

 

[Flere210]

Because when the guy with the best genetics in the continent, that was trained by the best knight alive since he was a child, and was the chosen hero of a prophecy, when he says that commoners cand everything that nobility does it fall flat. Expecially if you played Gaiden first and knew about the Twist. Every single time i wanted to tell him "shut up, your blood is bluer than Berkut's and Fernand's put togheter".

Sure, the other villagers, wich are still trained by the aforementioned knight, are closer to be underdogs, but they are not the main protagonists and we don't know how much they are impactful to the deliverance victories.

And the worst thing is that those things where not present in the original Gaiden. Alm being Rudolph's son is one of the few important plot points of that game. They could have gone in any direction with Alm's character and they picked the one wich clashes with his true identity.

Edited April 19, 2019 by Flere210

[Rose482]

I'm not sure how this turned into a Alm discussion thread.....however it gives me the chance to say out loud that Celica WAS THE BETTER FE15 LORD!!!!!1!111!

 

Okay but back to the topic, while I do agree that Alm was given a lot for his blood, doesn't every lord in FE also gets that? Now yes some more than others, but as long as it doesn't define who they are as characters, it should be fine, or at least for the most part. As long as their blood isn't the first thing you think about when you think about said character, it would mean they got written right in my opinion, and I know I can't speak for everyone, but when I think of Alm, his blood and how much gifts he got from it isn't the first thing that comes to my mind, which is something I can't really say about Corrin. 

 

Edited April 19, 2019 by Rose482

[Ottservia]

13 minutes ago, Rose482 said:

Celica WAS THE BETTER FE15 LORD!!!!!1!111!

agreed 100%

13 minutes ago, Rose482 said:

Okay but back to the topic, while I do agree that Alm was given a lot for his blood, doesn't every lord in FE also gets that? Now yes some more than others, but as long as it doesn't define who they are as characters, it should be fine, or at least for the most part. As long as their blood isn't the first thing you think about when you think about said character, it would mean they got written right in my opinion, and I know I can't speak for everyone, but when I think of Alm, his blood and how much gifts he got from it isn't the first thing that comes to my mind, which is something I can't really say about Corrin. 

y'see the difference between Alm and let's say marth is that Marth's games never tackled themes of classism and social status or at least not to the degree that SoV does. The reason Alm's royal blood giving him access to all these powers is such a problem is because it pretty much makes the ENTIRE conflict with Fernand and Berkut pointless. Like Fernand and Berkut are the ones saying "Oh no worthless commoner could ever be anything of worth in this world only those of noble/royal birth are worth anything and commoners will always be beneath them in every aspect". They are the villains meaning the narrative is presenting them on the wrong side of the argument which is further exmplified by Alm and Clive arguing the opposite that "a man's worth is not defined by his lineage but rather his actions and ideals. It doesn't matter how you were born so long as you work hard and fight for what's right that means you have what it takes to be king. Your lineage does not matter". Now this is fine enough conflict until you realize that Alm is royal and it is because of his lineage that he is able to be as powerful as he is. Like the narrative tries to present Fernand and Berkut in wrong when they're not wrong.

Other FE lords(as far as I can tell anyway) don't have this problem because they don't tackle that subject matter. Their stories do not revolve around that particular conflict so anything pertaining to it doesn't really matter in the overall grand scheme of their stories

[Armchair General]

On 04/17/19 at 3:44 PM, Kysafen said:

Calling it now. Awakening and Fates have proven beyond a doubt Intelligent Systems have no idea how to write a story that takes any kind of risk whatsoever. Writing that takes no risks at all is just white noise. Obviously I'll buy, and play it for the gameplay, but I cannot imagine IS not taking a plot that had potential like Fates and utterly squandering it.

Who are these nations? What do they believe in? What are their natural resources? Do they have different religions, different languages, different philosophies of life, different works of literature that define their philosophies to the point where the masses of each decide that the other is incompatible? What are the "crests" and what effect do they have on the nations? Are we going to explore the reason why the crests are "bad", are we going to have a multifaceted discussion on each nation in general?

Or, are we going to get yet another dumpster fire heap of anime tropetastic characters with zero depth to the appeal of otaku shut-ins who will deem them "waifus" and "husbandos", along with yet another disposable, forgettable villain who's so cartoonishly evil you cannot help wondering why the populace would ever accept them as their head of state.

Feel free to lock/delete this thread if you like, but my point stands. Fire Emblem has the capacity to raise the bar when it comes to its storytellng and character writing. I'm sick to death, hell, and back again of game localizations that are bereft of flavor, subtlety, or style, sick of localization teams in this industry that think their job is only to convey a surface-level understanding of the dialogue without considering all context of the game's plot as well as the manner-of-speaking that characters have (fun fact: different people have different patterns of speech, believe it or not). I will concede that, in the past 10 years of Fire Emblem games, Echoes remains the single exception to most of my complaints here. If we can get characters with designs that actually stand out, are voice-acted and written with nuance as much as Echoes had, then I will eat these words and admit I was wrong in my prediction. But I sure as shit won't bet the bank on it.

Is it wrong that I agree with this?

Even though it's kind of early for the 3H hate, the trailers could've shown more with the 3 nations other than how they appoint their leaders.

Plus, the worldbuilding in Fates and Awakening was kind of weak because  of the lack of villagers you can talk to. Sure, SoV exists, but I'm not sure if remakes counts.

 

[Rose482]

13 minutes ago, Armchair General said:

SoV exists, but I'm not sure if remakes counts

Yes, but almost everything that they wrote about the world either wasn't in the original game, or they didn't have enough lines that made the world what it was in FE15, so I really don't think it's fair to play the "it was a remake" card even though they basically wrote almost everything from the bottom to the top in FE15 and they really didn't have that much to take from FE2 to help them out.

 

And I guess I somewhat see your point @Ottservia .

Edited April 19, 2019 by Rose482

[Armchair General]

What's FE 15?

[Rose482]

1 minute ago, Armchair General said:

What's FE 15?

SoV lol V_V