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Were The Stat Changes Of Some Characters Done On Purpose?


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It is known that some characters are in Heroes like Wendy, Amelia or Karla are much better in Heroes than in their original game(s). In case of the first two mainly because Heroes made armors become competitive with other classes. However with the introduction of the second Laguz banner I got really confused. That Haar would not become amazing was obvious when I heared the announcement of being him a GHB unit. That he would turn into a copy of an unit from like the very beginning (Cherche) was a shocker for me though. An other example is Ranulf. He is great in FE9 and especially 10 when he joins, can (almost) oneround generics with great base strength and speed. But in Heroes he has even less strength than Lethe (!), one of the weakest units in FE10 at least. It makes absolute no sense to me and made me wondering if the creators ever played the game. Giving the unit a total different statspread than in their original game makes no sense to me. Well, in person of Caineghis the speed had to be dropped because he cannot have +30 in each single stat. In FE10 he is busted, just needs one bloodtide to oneround an aura. 

The questions are if the statspread changes of certain characters are done on purpose and if they bother you. 

Edited by Rosalina
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Were they done on purpose? Yes. Do they bother me, and should they? No, not at all. Using the examples you gave, let's start with Haar. The primary reason that Haar is good is that he's your sole flier during a part of the game that heavily caters to fliers, and that he's just fast enough that you can force him above the game's speed curve with a bit of favouritism. so his stat spread in heroes is pretty sensible... the only thing you could do to make him more accurate is actually make him slightly FASTER, which would eat into his str and def... ultimately making him a worse unit because he wouldn't be fast enough to take advantage of the extra speed anyway. Changing his stats to match heroes made him better than he would have been otherwise... Cherche is just too optimized and can't be knocked out of her niche without hilarious minmaxing due to that + her prf.

As for Lethe vs Ranulf, this one is pretty silly as well. In the base games, Ranulf was better than Lethe at every stat aside from Res. Lethe's advantages were more availability in harder parts of the game, and in PoR, having a better gauge. Neither of those things mean anything in Heroes, and you can't make Ranulf just better than Lethe at everything if you're keeping them the same move type, that would be silly. The areas that Lethe excelled in were str and spd, so making those her focus stats makes a lot of sense. Conversely, Ranulf's largest advantage over Lethe is in durability, so once again, making him more tanky makes sense. Ranulf wasn't done dirty or any of that nonsense by Lethe having more strength, him being a Lethe that is better at everything doesn't make sense in the context of heroes. By giving them differing roles(Lethe more of an assassin meant to use her move and solo skills to KO problematic units, and Ranulf more of a tanky team support) they are better able to co-exist without invalidating one another. When Ranulf's str is very solid in practice anyway(30 base is misleading, he gets +2 for transforming, inflicts -4 def, and gives himself another +3 atk if within 2 spaces of an ally) his being a bit lower than Lethe's, who depends on the raw stat far more to do her job, isn't some sort of slight against him. It's just allowing her to exist as more than just shittier Ranulf.

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Heroes isn't balanced around PoR/RD.  They're balanced around their own meta.  Just look at Florina's max stats - they look nothing like how she was in FE7.

That doesn't stop Cainghenis from being one of the better EP units.  Or Haar from still being damn good in his own right.

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To copy paste this old exchange between me and Bottlegnomes about Jamke, the best freebie Colorless Bow Infantry in the game:

Spoiler

"To be fair, Jamke is actually pretty accurate. He was a bow user with good stats focused mostly in attack and slightly less so speed that came with a killer bow. That's pretty much exactly what he is in Heroes. It just doesn't really carry over in the day and age of min-maxed out the ass units, special weapons, and insta-specials. That said, yeah, I really do wish he'd been better."

 

My response:

"Agreed on the accuracy.

His FE4 self- a breakdown:

HP 90%- second highest value in Gen 1 (highest is 110), tied with several. Str 50%- highest value, tied with Sigurd, Quan, Arden, Lachesis. Skl 10%- the lowest value, tied with Arden and Silvia. Spd 30%- average, had by many. Lck 40%- average-ish, with quite a few higher. Def 30%- average. Res 5%- the usual for a physical unit. 255 in total growths is right in the middle of the FE4 Gen 1 pack.

His base Spd is good, thanks to the Archer class's stats. The Killer Bow's 100 Hit is +30 over every non-Brave Bow, which with his 14 base Skl fixes his accuracy issues. 11 base Str is not so high though, something his growth has to counteract. His base HP is good.

Pursuit from the Archer class (although shouldn't it now be translated as Followup?) allows him to double. Adept gives him with the KB (so light at only 3 Wt, the same effectively as Yewfelle and 5 less than every other bow) a 31% chance of dealing an extra hit. The KB itself provides Critical at a 14% (his base Skl) activation rate. 

Compared to Midir, Jamke has much better bases, with better HP, Str, and Luck growths. Midir has better Skl and Spd growths, but significantly lower bases, nor Adept. In growths, Brigid has as much HP, Spd, Def, and Res, more Lck, slightly more Skl, and less Str, and no non-Pursuit skills. Of course, she comes much later, prepromoted with +20 Str/Skl/Spd, and gets Yewfelle for a minimum of 60 Atk.

 

And then you have Charge/Confront/Accost (translate it as you wish). FEH has yet to add anything like this- a skill that prolongs the duration of a round of combat, for better or worse. I doubt they ever would."

 

As for Canas, his stats and Lucius's and Erk's from FE7:

Spoiler

Canas:

/20 HP 46.7 Mag 23.95 Skl 21.4 Spd 21.85 Lck 14.75 Def 14.75 Res 23.95
Higher Caps /60 /29 /26 /26 /30 /21 /28

Lucius:

/20 HP 40.8 Mag 25 Skl 25 Spd 24 Lck 9.2 Def 7.6 Res 29.6
Higher Caps /60 /25 /26 /24 /30 /22 /30

Erk:

/20 HP 45.7 Mag 21.2 Skl 21.2 Spd 26 Lck 14.4 Def 12.6 Res 22.2
Higher Caps /60 /28 /30 /26 /30 /21 /25

 

Canas is the most balanced of the unpromoted magic users (Pent is also fairly balanced- but starts promoted and hence is different).

 

And Raigh vs. Sophia (Niime doesn't count because she is all about bases):

Spoiler

Raigh:

20 HP 40.85 Mag 28.15 Skl 24 Spd 21.8 Lck 10.05 Def 11.05 Res 21.45
Higher Caps /60 /29 /24 /26 /30 /21 /28

Sophia:

20 HP 39.8 Mag 29 Skl 19.2 Spd 18.4 Lck 10.6 Def 10.6 Res 29
Higher Caps /60 /29 /24 /26 /30 /20 /29

Sophia capped Mag at 20/16, so her lead is a little stronger than 1 point actually. And unlike FE7 where enemy AS is low, Raigh's 3-4 Spd lead can make a significant difference in doubling capabilities.

This is not to excuse the laziness of Canas's statline, or the absence of some good skill or weapon like his old favorite "Use me!" card- the Luna tome. But it does provide rationale to it.

 

28 minutes ago, eclipse said:

Just look at Florina's max stats - they look nothing like how she was in FE7.

She does have a Heavy Spear as her starting weapon in FEH though, that would inflict a colossal 10-9 AS loss on her in FE7. Her "ruined" FEH statline could be influenced by this.

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7 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

She does have a Heavy Spear as her starting weapon in FEH though, that would inflict a colossal 10-9 AS loss on her in FE7. Her "ruined" FEH statline could be influenced by this.

That doesn't explain her Res.  If we're going by FE7 standards, Florina's Res is higher than her Def, but it's hardly her best stat - and it definitely isn't higher than Serra's!

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Of course they were done on purpose, if trash units stayed trash in Heroes, they would be unprofitable. Even Ranulf's worthless Atk can still be sold on other qualities~

As for if it bothers me, no~ I'd feel bad if Karla fans had to have her be deplorable in every game she's in~

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Did you have these complaints of different stat spreads between Path of Radiance and Radiant Dawn? Like how Gatrie in RD has a 60% speed growth and is three points from capping the stat in his base class, when his speed was near unsalvageable in the previous game? Or how the returning mages have terrible speed? I don't think it makes much sense to prioritize character design decisions first on a basis that adheres to a previous game. And I think it makes even less sense in Heroes, a game with starkly different gameplay, class balance, and skill balance. But just like the mainline Fire Emblem games, players can and will invest in their favorite units and make them good if they aren't already. 

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Of course.

I mean, the three you mentioned are some people’s waifus. They need good stats and looks for maximum profit.

But yeah, every other point has already been said here.

As for everyone who got worse...

I dunno. They treated Canas like a free unit, like Finn before him. It’s run like a business.

That is not to say the way things are is how I would want it. Or anyone else here. I would go as far to say Heroes deserves a rerelease (not without some reward for those who played the original, of course).

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7 minutes ago, Azure in a Roundabout said:

They treated Canas like a free unit,

For all the complaints about Canas having completely mediocre stats in Heroes, they pretty much gave him an identical stat spread as his original from Blazing Sword. The only thing that made him stand out in Blazing Sword was the fact that he was the only unit that could use Luna before the final chapter, and that's not something that directly transfers into Heroes.

Sure, they could have completely scrapped his original stat spread and pulled a brand new one out their ass, but doing so is more of the exception than the norm, and there really needs to be more justification to create an exception than to stick with an existing stat spread. Justification like "this character was utter trash in their source game and we need them to not be utter trash" (Karla) or "we need this unit to be more unique" (differentiating Lethe and Ranulf) or "we need to bump this unit's stats up or down to match the class stat totals in Heroes" (armors, cavalry, dancers, etc.) or "lol Heavy Spear" (Florina).

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5 hours ago, eclipse said:

That doesn't explain her Res.  If we're going by FE7 standards, Florina's Res is higher than her Def, but it's hardly her best stat - and it definitely isn't higher than Serra's!

34 vs. 33 and 19.3 vs. 27.9. Yeah, no explanation here.

Although this leaves me wondering how Fiora is going to look if she gets in. Of the FE7 Peg Sisters, Florina's Res is the lowest, Fiora has the highest at 25, one short of the cap. She could be hitting 40 Res sans nature-  although something is going to have to give for that. Have a Titanic-sinker ready to inherit if she doesn't come with one.

On the plus side, Farina might give us a slow and tanky Lance Flier, having the lowest Spd (26.15) and highest Def (18.75, Fiora is 14.4, Florina is 11.7, she has more Def than Kent and Sain- two units with what would be called good durability) of her sisters, with 1 HP more than Fiora. She also has 1-2 Str more than both of them.

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9 hours ago, eclipse said:

Heroes isn't balanced around PoR/RD.  They're balanced around their own meta.  Just look at Florina's max stats - they look nothing like how she was in FE7.

Actually true. 

Lots of the peg knights are way bulkier in Heroes. 

Sumia, a physical papercut in FE13, could work as an enemy phase unit very well without much investment thanks to her A skill and weapon. 

 

That said I am not complain, I am just wondering. I just noticed it in the case of the Laguz. 

Of course it pleasent to use characters now which were (almost) unusable in their own games. 

However changing or even switching the role of characters feels weird. Lethe became from the sub-ordinate of the cats in FE10 to the leader since she beats Ranulf in each stat except defense. I mean I can see why Ranulf's stats were nerfed, mainly to support, but giving him less attack than her weak sub-ordinate feels really odd. Even Mordecai who alsoworks as support unit has a very good and realistic stat spread without taking any nerfs, so I do not quite see why Ranulf is the expection here. I rather would have expected him being demoted instead of Mordecai.

 

As for GHB or TT units it is not surprising that they have less BST a / o weaker skill set (exceptions still exist like BK, Xander, Aversa or WCecilia for being an unique class or having an unique weapon), but seeing Haar having the same stats as someone from the 3* and 4* pool of nearly date of launch is kinda pointless by all the powercreep.

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A little something I find interesting to observe is how the stat alterations affected the launch units. You have the Heavy Spear wielders being slower than their original appearances (Est, for instance, was at least on par with her sister Catria), units who compensate for having a lower stat growth with skills (Virion and Odin suffer the most from this I think), and the Avatars of Awakening and Echoes who don't have a singular core growth to take from. The Robins are the same unit different color, but Male Corrin winds up being stronger and slightly more resilient, but less defensive than Female Corrin, who also edges him out in Speed.

Once they begin releasing units, it seems they were less inclined to alter their stats based on their equipment, and then later they mostly kinda sorta used their original stat spread and growths as a reference for their final goal for the unit.

6 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

For all the complaints about Canas having completely mediocre stats in Heroes, they pretty much gave him an identical stat spread as his original from Blazing Sword. The only thing that made him stand out in Blazing Sword was the fact that he was the only unit that could use Luna before the final chapter, and that's not something that directly transfers into Heroes.

Well... now that Luna Arc is a weapon, Canas could get... Tome of Luna with a Res variant of Luna Ark's effect? Maybe that as the forge effect, and Owltome effect as the base?

...it'd at least let him stand out a little compared to Raigh.

Edited by Xenomata
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looking at the averages on the site, amelia's stat spread isn't too far off from her spread as a general in SS, her speed is a great deal higher than SS allowed, but that is just because heroes stopped caring about caps so they decided to make use that, otherwise her growth would allow her to cap it easily, likewise her defense is ok, her res is above average for the class, her attack is mediocre and her hp is solid.

NB4 people complain about amelia being bad when the complaint is about availability, more so than max level performance.

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2 hours ago, thecrimsonflash said:

looking at the averages on the site, amelia's stat spread isn't too far off from her spread as a general in SS, her speed is a great deal higher than SS allowed, but that is just because heroes stopped caring about caps so they decided to make use that, otherwise her growth would allow her to cap it easily, likewise her defense is ok, her res is above average for the class, her attack is mediocre and her hp is solid.

NB4 people complain about amelia being bad when the complaint is about availability, more so than max level performance.

Honestly Amelia is kinda weird

 

In terms of stats total she's fairly impressive. But if you use her growth as a baseline, she kinda sucked, on everything but defense where shes slightly above average

This is because IS balanced SS cast by using their remaining level, with Lords getting extras in luck. As a result, Ephraim and Eirika had the best stats in the entirety of GBA era with the exception of intentionally busted characters like Chad, Fae, Myrh, Karel and Seth somehow sits in the Top 3, literally the only thing that puts Seth outside Ephraim tier of stats is his Luck

 

 

Honestly average is kind of a flawed way to judge stats because it comes from a very flawed idea that isnt true that being "every two level i gain 1 stats".

 

 

Edited by JSND Alter Dragon Boner
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2 hours ago, Xenomata said:

Well... now that Luna Arc is a weapon, Canas could get... Tome of Luna with a Res variant of Luna Ark's effect? Maybe that as the forge effect, and Owltome effect as the base?

...it'd at least let him stand out a little compared to Raigh.

If they do, it'll probably be a long wait, unfortunately. So far, Navarre and Robin are the only free units that have received a brand new weapon after their release, so there's no telling how long it'll take before they do the same for the others with outdated stats or stat spreads. I'm not holding my breath.

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3 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

If they do, it'll probably be a long wait, unfortunately. So far, Navarre and Robin are the only free units that have received a brand new weapon after their release, so there's no telling how long it'll take before they do the same for the others with outdated stats or stat spreads. I'm not holding my breath.

still wont be as long as the day DC weapon owner get refine

Just use Slayer Refine and DC a slot doesnt count

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3 minutes ago, JSND Alter Dragon Boner said:

still wont be as long as the day DC weapon owner get refine

Just use Slayer Refine and DC a slot doesnt count

Inb4 Distant Counter weapon refines come next month.

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On the topic of stat spreads, is there anything that could explain (the same way that has been used before for Haar, Florina etc before) why Seth isn’t a god here or at least one of the best sword cavaliers? Maybe something related with his SS stats?

Just for the sake of curiosity

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22 minutes ago, Javi Blizz said:

On the topic of stat spreads, is there anything that could explain (the same way that has been used before for Haar, Florina etc before) why Seth isn’t a god here or at least one of the best sword cavaliers? Maybe something related with his SS stats?

Just for the sake of curiosity

I think that seth got a veteran nerf as well as cavalry stats, both of which grant reduced stats, heroes' mechanics do not benefit units who had mixed stat spreads, I don't recall seth having any explicitly notable stats, he was just good all across the board, that doesn't make units all that great in heroes.

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2 hours ago, Javi Blizz said:

On the topic of stat spreads, is there anything that could explain (the same way that has been used before for Haar, Florina etc before) why Seth isn’t a god here or at least one of the best sword cavaliers? Maybe something related with his SS stats?

Just for the sake of curiosity

1 hour ago, thecrimsonflash said:

I think that seth got a veteran nerf as well as cavalry stats, both of which grant reduced stats, heroes' mechanics do not benefit units who had mixed stat spreads, I don't recall seth having any explicitly notable stats, he was just good all across the board, that doesn't make units all that great in heroes.

Seth does not have veteran BST penalty.

Seth is not considered a stellar combat unit because his stats and Refinement are not specialized for that. GR!Celica, Siegbert, BH!Roy, Cain, Eliwood, TBK!Chrom, WOT!Reinhardt, Sigurd, Luke, and Ares all outclass him on Player Phase. On Enemy Phase, Hríd, WOT!Reinhardt, Eldigan, Xander, Ares, TBK!Chrom, Sigurd, and Eliwood all outclass him too. If you want dual phase, WOT!Reinhardt and Ares got Counter-Vantage while GR!Eirika got okay sustainability to operate independently.

Even against Stahl, Seth still is not the outright winner on Enemy Phase because Stahl's massive HP pool is more than enough to offset having 2 less Def than Seth, and Stahl's low Spd is more beneficial than Seth's mediocre Spd, as Stahl can more reliably be doubled and activate stronger Specials. For Enemy Phase units, you either want to be super fast or super slow; mediocre Spd is horrible because you can neither rely on strong Specials for kills nor on high Spd to avoid doubles.

Seth's primary role (if you are sticking with Silverbrand) is buffing his teammates and his mixed stat spread is great for shutting down greens (you want mediocre Spd in conjunction with a Breaker to break Wary Fighter, but you do not want so much Spd that it takes away from other stats), which no other sword cavalry can do as well as him at the moment.

Edited by XRay
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1 hour ago, XRay said:

Seth does not have veteran BST penalty.

Seth is not considered a stellar combat unit because his stats and Refinement are not specialized for that. GR!Celica, Siegbert, BH!Roy, Cain, Eliwood, TBK!Chrom, WOT!Reinhardt, Sigurd, Luke, and Ares all outclass him on Player Phase. On Enemy Phase, Hríd, WOT!Reinhardt, Eldigan, Xander, Ares, TBK!Chrom, Sigurd, and Eliwood all outclass him too. If you want dual phase, WOT!Reinhardt and Ares got Counter-Vantage while GR!Eirika got okay sustainability to operate independently.

Even against Stahl, Seth still is not the outright winner on Enemy Phase because Stahl's massive HP pool is more than enough to offset having 2 less Def than Seth, and Stahl's low Spd is more beneficial than Seth's mediocre Spd, as Stahl can more reliably be doubled and activate stronger Specials. For Enemy Phase units, you either want to be super fast or super slow; mediocre Spd is horrible because you can neither rely on strong Specials for kills nor on high Spd to avoid doubles.

Seth's primary role (if you are sticking with Silverbrand) is buffing his teammates and his mixed stat spread is great for shutting down greens (you want mediocre Spd in conjunction with a Breaker to break Wary Fighter, but you do not want so much Spd that it takes away from other stats), which no other sword cavalry can do as well as him at the moment.

Sure, all you say is true, my question was more about if the stat spread of Seth in the SS was similar to what we can find in his Heroes self, or if at least there was an explication about him being so mediocre if both stat spreads are similar

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4 minutes ago, Javi Blizz said:

Sure, all you say is true, my question was more about if the stat spread of Seth in the SS was similar to what we can find in his Heroes self, or if at least there was an explication about him being so mediocre if both stat spreads are similar

Oh, I see.

Here are his average stats.

HP = 47.1
Str = 23.5

Skl = 21.55
Spd = 20.55
Lck = 17.75
Def = 18.6
Res = 13.7

Total "BST" = 123.45
Total "BST" sans HP = 76.35

HP = 38.15%
Atk = 19.04%
Spd = 16.65%
Def = 15.07%
Res = 11.10%

Atk = 30.78%
Spd = 26.92%
Def = 24.36%
Res = 17.94%

His stats in Heroes:

HP = 37
Atk = 32
Spd = 31
Def = 32
Res = 22
Total BST = 154
Total BST sans HP = 117

HP = 24.03%
Atk = 20.78%
Spd = 20.13%
Def = 20.78%
Res = 14.29%

Atk = 27.35%
Spd = 26.50%
Def = 27.35%
Res = 18.80%

His stat distribution is pretty close, especially if you discount HP.

— — — — — — —

I have not played Sacred Stones in like a long time, but from what I remember, Seth was pretty decent towards the end game in my experience. I do not remember him being particularly special combat wise, but he definitely does not suck. I find him to be an all round useful unit.

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4 hours ago, XRay said:

Oh, I see.

Here are his average stats.

HP = 47.1
Str = 23.5

Skl = 21.55
Spd = 20.55
Lck = 17.75
Def = 18.6
Res = 13.7

Total "BST" = 123.45
Total "BST" sans HP = 76.35

HP = 38.15%
Atk = 19.04%
Spd = 16.65%
Def = 15.07%
Res = 11.10%

Atk = 30.78%
Spd = 26.92%
Def = 24.36%
Res = 17.94%

His stats in Heroes:

HP = 37
Atk = 32
Spd = 31
Def = 32
Res = 22
Total BST = 154
Total BST sans HP = 117

HP = 24.03%
Atk = 20.78%
Spd = 20.13%
Def = 20.78%
Res = 14.29%

Atk = 27.35%
Spd = 26.50%
Def = 27.35%
Res = 18.80%

His stat distribution is pretty close, especially if you discount HP.

— — — — — — —

I have not played Sacred Stones in like a long time, but from what I remember, Seth was pretty decent towards the end game in my experience. I do not remember him being particularly special combat wise, but he definitely does not suck. I find him to be an all round useful unit.

Thanks!

And sure, he was great even at the end

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