Credits: Illumio, Michael “Hardin” Ingram, Pandorakun, Crazy Foxie (proof-reading), Sami R (translation)

Notes: This interview was first published in July 2010.

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3. Debating about the permanent death feature

Iwata: Incidentally, how did you begin the development of the current title, Heroes of Light and Shadow? What was your driving force to make the game?

Narihiro: Actually, while making the previous title, Shadow Dragon, we were already making preparations for the development of Heroes of Light and Shadow. This is because Mystery of the Emblem for the Super NES which this game is based on included two games: the first being Shadow Dragon and the second Mystery of the Emblem. So because we really wanted the players to enjoy the latter part of the story as well, we had plans to remake and release Heroes of Light and Shadow soon after Shadow Dragon. However, we came to the conclusion that it would be difficult to release the game in the same form.

Maeda: That is to say, because this is essentially the second part of Mystery of the Emblem, there was the risk that people who hadn’t played Shadow Dragon might think they wouldn’t connect with the story. Moreover, while the story alone might have made the game awkward to approach for newcomers, releasing the game in the same form, without inserting any gameplay schemes to welcome newcomers, would have made it even worse.

Iwata: From there, how did you find the solution to overcome this obstacle?

Maeda: We decided not to make a simple remake, but instead an entirely new Fire Emblem game. Of course Mystery of the Emblem was the foundation for this game, but it would be no more than that; it would be just the base to build on. We decided to insert elements that were completely new. Starting with this intent of mixing in new ideas, we consulted with the people at Nintendo and so the development of the game began.

Iwata: During those discussions, what kind of things had come up?

Narihiro: Generally speaking, two problems came up. The first was how we should make the game easier for beginners to get into. The second and the most debated issue was the conventional ‘your fallen comrades can’t be revived’ feature.

As was previously discussed, in Shadow Dragon we had inserted Save Points to alleviate the pain of retrying, but it appears it didn’t work well enough. So the issue of ‘whether or not we should allow the characters to be revived’ became the bone of contention. The debate itself lasted several months. I actually followed the argument from a bit of a distance; Higuchi-san was our man in contact with the people from Nintendo.

Iwata: Well then, Higuchi-san, could you tell us what kind of points came up during this debate?

Higuchi: Yes. Nintendo suggested that ‘to make the game enjoyable for as many people as possible, wouldn’t it be better if you could revive your fallen units in the following chapter?’ My first reaction to this was ‘if we made such an alteration, Fire Emblem would cease to be Fire Emblem’.

Iwata: Over the years, you came to believe that the feeling of tension was created from not being able to revive your allies.

Higuchi: That’s it. I thought it was the most appealing factor of the series, its special trait. That’s why I thought that ‘on this point I will never surrender’, and so the intense debate with Nintendo’s representatives stretched on and on.

Narihiro: It felt like discussions were held every day; sometimes even late at night.

Iwata: Didn’t this kind of debate occur during the development of the previous title as well?

Narihiro: Not only with Shadow Dragon, but also before that. Actually, with previous titles we’ve tried implementing systems for reviving characters numerous times, but it always seemed to take something away with it.

Higuchi: That’s right. These kinds of debates, talk of a movement to change the game system, were already around when I joined the company, back when we were developing Genealogy of the Holy War.

Iwata: Genealogy of the Holy War was how many years ago?

Higuchi: It was released in 1996, so about 14 years ago. At the time, the change was at the specification document phase. It read ‘a unit can be defeated 5 times before finally dying’. When I saw this, I went to the director to complain and said, ‘You cannot allow a change like this to be made!’

Iwata: Hearing this makes me think that this debate has continued for quite a long time now. Even a new recruit voiced his opinion on the matter to the director, right after joining the company. (laughs) Higuchi-san, were you such a big ‘Emblem’ fan when you joined the company?

Higuchi: No. I had actually never played Fire Emblem before entering the company.

Iwata: Huh? Is that so?

Higuchi: After joining the company, I had the opportunity to try out Mystery of the Emblem, which had been recently released. It was basically the first Fire Emblem I had played. However, when I finally got to play it, a crowd of people gathered behind me. Everyone was telling me things along the lines of, ‘You should do that like this’. It was really annoying.

Iwata: When it comes to Fire Emblem, nearly everyone at Intelligent Systems has an opinion about it. It wasn’t like they could just let you play it alone in silence! (laughs)

Higuchi: That’s true. (laughs) Nevertheless, when I got to play the series for the first time, I was captured by its charms. In RPGs, it’s common that you can revive fallen allies, but in Fire Emblem it is the ‘once your units die, they stay dead’ rule that creates its sense of tension. I think it is the most appealing aspect of the series.

Iwata: So 14 years ago you made your request to the director, saying that being able to revive allies was a bad choice. This time too, you were adamant that you’d never give up on the point.

Higuchi: Yes. I thought I’d never concede to their request. Even so, when discussing the issue with Nintendo’s representatives, the point came up that just hearing about the ‘units can’t be revived’ rule might make some beginners avoid the series.

Maeda: Among other things, people new to the series wouldn’t know about the method of resetting and restarting the chapter from the beginning after a unit is killed.

Higuchi: That’s why, so that even beginners could easily enjoy the game, we tried our best to implement ‘relief measures’ aimed at them. One thing we tried was that on a certain difficulty level, like ‘Normal’ or ‘Hard’, if one of your units is killed, they will be revived for the following chapter.

Iwata: In other words, you could choose from a variety of difficulty levels. You examined what would happen, on the easiest level aimed at beginners, if defeated allies could be revived.

Higuchi: Yes.

Iwata: While Higuchi-san was having these discussions with the people from Nintendo, what kind of stance did you have on the issue, Maeda-san?

Maeda: Having originally been a Fire Emblem fan, when I first heard about this, I held the same opinion as Higuchi-san.

Iwata: It was natural that you’d be against the ability to revive characters.

Maeda: That’s right. But on the other hand, there is something that Narihiro-san keeps telling us: ‘Game developers must try to be objective.’

Iwata: In other words, he told you to avoid looking at this from only a fan’s point of view, and to try to see it from other perspectives as well.

Maeda: Yes. We would then request assistance from other people within the company and had them play-test the prototype of the game several times. Among the test players there were people who didn’t play Fire Emblem, but they told me that ‘if there was a mode like this in the game, I might come to enjoy the series as well’. After hearing this, I could sense the possibilities. We might have people, who had since now kept their distance from the series, say to themselves ‘with this game, I might be able to get into the series.’ And so I betrayed my cause midway through development. (laughs) I had gradually stepped to the other side, trying to convince Higuchi-san to change his mind.

Iwata: When you actually tried out a mode with the ability to revive characters, how did you find it, Higuchi-san?

Higuchi: When I first tried it out myself, I thought that it might actually be a nice entry point for people new to the series. And after playing this mode, they might move on to the more enjoyably challenging ‘Normal’ and ‘Hard’ modes. Though that only came after being persuaded by Maeda-san. (laughs)

Everyone: (laughs)

Higuchi: At that point, the debate abated for the moment, but it was far from finished.

Iwata: Considering how long this debate around Fire Emblem had gone on for, it wasn’t going to end so quickly, was it? (laughs)

Higuchi: Yes. (laughs) Afterwards, we argued over how the difficulty levels should be mapped out.

Maeda: In the debate, a proposal came up that, after selecting the difficulty mode, you could select whether or not your characters could be revived.

Higuchi: We had already implemented a difficulty level where your defeated characters would be revived. I thought that this would be enough, but then I would hear people tell me, one after another, that there would be people picking up this game who hadn’t played a Fire Emblem game in a while. There is no way they would want to play on the lowest difficulty level, but neither would they be the types to put up with the ‘super-stoic’ style of play, the style of pressing Reset every time one of their units died. This was the reason for the proposal.

Iwata: Certainly, the people who had played the games ‘back in the day’ would know how to play a Fire Emblem game quite well. Even if these people wanted to enjoy the game casually, it’s unlikely they would be satisfied with just playing the game on the lowest difficulty level.

Higuchi: That’s right. So because we wanted not only beginners, but also the ‘lapsed’ Fire Emblem players to be able to casually enjoy the game, we decided that, instead of only making it a part of a certain difficulty level, we would let the players decide whether or not characters could be revived. Ultimately we wanted to let the players choose the way they would play the game. Targeting not only beginners, but everyone, who wanted to enjoy the game casually, we decided to call the mode with the ability to revive characters ‘Casual’. And for the people who wanted to play this game in the same way as always, we called the other mode ‘Classic’.

Iwata: ‘Classic Mode’ essentially means ‘traditional mode’, doesn’t it?

Higuchi: Yes. In the end, the player could choose from 4 difficulty levels and then, depending on his or her preference, the game mode they wanted to play. We hope that in this way, a wide variety of people can enjoy the game. While we had all kinds of problems during development, I do think the long debates have paid off in the end.

Iwata: Around how long did these discussions continue?

Higuchi: About four months.

Iwata: So after all these years, the debate around this point finally came to an end. It took quite a long time didn’t it?

Higuchi: Yes. It did take a while. (laughs)

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