The Class You Hate the Most

[Emperor Hardin]

4 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Agreed. And unlike FE, there is hardly any RNG involved in AW unless you're talking Flak/Jugger/Nell, which makes it fairer to both players.

Though I'm interested- how did TearRing Saga handle multiplayer?

Tearring Saga has probably the most in-depth and well done multiplayer I've ever seen in FE.

There's so many options to add, what skills, spells, items, classes are allowed, ETC.

Its very well made.

The demo even had premade teams made out of unplayable characters from the story.

4 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

And its more than marginally better- it keeps them from being nearly ORKOed by magic, and helps them survive even the strongest of physical enemies. If Generals had Wary Fighter in SD, maybe they'd actually be useful on Merciless outside of Wolf and Sedgar.

Shadow Dragon Generals are actually good outside of Wolf and Sedgar. The DS General class is very weird. Basically its a utility class for when you defense right then and there, as well as significantly better strength and defense growth. It helps as many characters have great base speed, but almost no one has great base defense.

Its not a good final class in New Mystery or a good Wi-Fi class in either game.

Edited September 18, 2017 by Emperor Hardin

[Ether]

5 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Problem is the player's main knight is Effie, whose speed is absurdly good. Benoit gets helped by the skill, but he's much less viable on revelations.

As an Armor fan, its annoying that SoV made Barons/Generals even worse then in the original, giving them no advantages, while taking away the few they had.

Oh and terrain restrictions need to die permanently.

As an aside, Effie is one of the best Knight FE has ever seen. Maybe giving her good speed, good offenses, a good join time with maps near said join time involving a niche for her, and allowing her to promote to something other than General contributed to that...

As for SoV, I haven't used Barons in either version of the game, so I can't say much about that.

3 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Agreed. And unlike FE, there is hardly any RNG involved in AW unless you're talking Flak/Jugger/Nell, which makes it fairer to both players.

Though I'm interested- how did TearRing Saga handle multiplayer?

 

I'll buy into giving Generals full WTC control and taking it from Great Knights.

Shouldn't enemy generals be a tough nut to crack? And if you're playing Conquest on Hard or Lunatic, the game should be hard. 

And its more than marginally better- it keeps them from being nearly ORKOed by magic, and helps them survive even the strongest of physical enemies. If Generals had Wary Fighter in SD, maybe they'd actually be useful on Merciless outside of Wolf and Sedgar.

They should be tough for you to crack without countermeasures prepared. Your mage or hammer user not being able to kill a General "just because" isn't as good design wise. And Wary Fighter exists on Normal mode as well, it's not restricted to harder difficulties. I mostly find Wary Fighter more of an annoyance to deal with than difficult, it feels bad to be put up against moreso than making Generals difficult to deal with.

[Florina's #1 Fan]

10 minutes ago, Ether said:

That's fair enough. Though please, no more Wary Fighter. That skill is super annoying on enemy Generals while making your own Knights... marginally better at best.

Benny loves Wary Fighter. Effie doesn't, but then you don't have to equip it (honestly, she shouldn't even be a knight, she can be any physical class in the game and be good at it because her stats are laughably broken). Pretty much any normal General loves Wary Fighter, although I think it should be like in Heroes, where after you lose a certain amount of health, it doesn't work anymore, so that enemies can't abuse it against quick magic users, especially in Fates, where Generals, including Benny, aren't as bad class-wise at taking magic hits.

[Shadow Mir]

1 hour ago, Ether said:

I think that fighter characters tend to be poor, but fighter as a class isn't as bad as knight as a class, so I prefer fighters to knights. We have a decent few examples of good, or at least plenty usable fighters, like FE9 Boyd, Nolan, Geitz(starts as a warrior, but all fighters become warriors in 7, so there's no real reason to make a distinction) and Barst. Even if a lot of them are bad, that doesn't make the class itself inherently bad, which I feel is the case with Knights. Admittedly, I also like fighters in Fates because small crit rates aren't as much of a be all end all for me as they are for you, but that's just a difference in playstyle. 

My big issue with fighters as a class is that their lack of defenses and speed tend to hold them back on the battlefield, and they have next to nothing in terms of advantages to make up for this. And I'll grant, there are some good fighters... but the problem is that there are few of them. Going back to Fates, Arthur and Charlotte both have serious issues (the former has Really. Bad. Luck. This alone would be concerning enough, but his personal skill is one that's actively detrimental to him - it lowers his crit evade by 5. Charlotte couldn't hit the broad side of a barn if her life depended on it... which it does because she has garbage defenses. And promoting to Berserker does nothing but make things worse for both of them.).

Edited September 18, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Ether]

21 minutes ago, Florina's #1 Fan said:

Benny loves Wary Fighter. Effie doesn't, but then you don't have to equip it (honestly, she shouldn't even be a knight, she can be any physical class in the game and be good at it because her stats are laughably broken). Pretty much any normal General loves Wary Fighter, although I think it should be like in Heroes, where after you lose a certain amount of health, it doesn't work anymore, so that enemies can't abuse it against quick magic users, especially in Fates, where Generals, including Benny, aren't as bad class-wise at taking magic hits.

When half of the knights in the base game(Ignatius is pretty much Benny+, and requires using and marrying him off to even acquire, if you're using Ignatius he probably replaces his dad) don't care about Wary Fighter, it can't be considered all that effective. It helps guys like Benny, but Effie shows that having other advantages is better than Wary Fighter anyway.

Just now, Levant Mir Celestia said:

My big issue with fighters as a class is that their lack of defenses and speed tend to hold them back on the battlefield, and they have next to nothing in terms of advantages to make up for this. And I'll grant, there are some good fighters... but the problem is that there are few of them. And going back to Fates, Arthur and Charlotte both have serious issues (the former has Really. Bad. Luck. This alone would be concerning enough, but his personal skill is one that's actively detrimental to him - it lowers his crit evade by 5. Charlotte couldn't hit the broad side of a barn if her life depended on it... which it does because she has garbage defenses. And promoting to Berserker does nothing but make things worse for both of them.).

Fighters are still one of the worse classes, sure. But I feel Knights are worse than them, and again, I(and a large section of the player base) value Luck far less than you do. It's fine to place importance on it, but a bad luck stat being an automatic no sell is a sentiment that I haven't seen from anyone else. Granted, I don't really use Arthur, but Charlotte's negatives can be worked around in some degrees, removing gamble straight away is the first thing, her hit can also be improved with Bronze Axes or Brass Clubs if you have access to Hoshidan castles since her Str and Spd are naturally pretty good. In addition, she can promote to Hero if you really hate Berserkers. She's not great, but she's perfectly usable on Normal and Hard, I don't have much experience with Conquest Lunatic.

Basically, fighters don't have to be good to be better than Knights.

 

[Kazuya]

Nomads/Bow knights/ so on. I really only found a few good, and the rest are a mixed bag. Like most archers though, but whatever. 

[Florina's #1 Fan]

4 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

(Charlotte couldn't hit the broad side of a barn if her life depended on it... which it does because she has garbage defenses. And promoting to Berserker does nothing but make things worse for both of them.).

Except she can hit. Her skill growth is good. She has a bad base in skill, but that doesn't mean she's inaccurate forever, considering how easy it is to forge weapons in that game, it isn't even costly to give her a temporary handicap so that she can build her skill, which, again, is actually very nice, that's why she crits all the time, that and her berserker boost. Charlotte is the perfect Fates berserker, it's what she's designed for, whereas Arthur is built for hero with his high skill and his awful luck not needing to drop further.

[saisymbolic]

I don't like Griffon Riders. Could have been interesting but it wasn't. Griffons also didn't really get an explanation - or any at all that I can even remember. Only good thing they had was Deliverer.

[Shadow Mir]

1 hour ago, Florina's #1 Fan said:

Except she can hit. Her skill growth is good. She has a bad base in skill, but that doesn't mean she's inaccurate forever, considering how easy it is to forge weapons in that game, it isn't even costly to give her a temporary handicap so that she can build her skill, which, again, is actually very nice, that's why she crits all the time, that and her berserker boost. Charlotte is the perfect Fates berserker, it's what she's designed for, whereas Arthur is built for hero with his high skill and his awful luck not needing to drop further.

So she's reliant on hitting to get better... Except she can't get better because she can't hit. Classic catch-22 situation, no? Also, yes, it is costly to forge when it requires buying duplicates of the weapon to forge, not to mention that forging is dependent on minerals, which you only get one type of. So if you don't have sapphires in your castle, you'll have a hard time forging axes. Oh, and forging won't help much since you don't have any say in what stats get boosted anyhow. Also, being "the perfect Fates Berserker" means about as much as being the best cat in RD, aka nothing because being the best of the worst is meaningless.

[Florina's #1 Fan]

20 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

So she's reliant on hitting to get better... Except she can't get better because she can't hit. Classic catch-22 situation, no? Also, yes, it is costly to forge when it requires buying duplicates of the weapon to forge, not to mention that forging is dependent on minerals, which you only get one type of. So if you don't have sapphires in your castle, you'll have a hard time forging axes. Oh, and forging won't help much since you don't have any say in what stats get boosted anyhow. Also, being "the perfect Fates Berserker" means about as much as being the best cat in RD, aka nothing because being the best of the worst is meaningless.

Except if you took advantage of streetpass and online castle visits, you could get minerals from other castles. And axes, when forged, go up in accuracy first, if not every time. And really, a regular bronze axe lets Charlotte hit, because she won't get criticals at the start anyway, plus it gives her extra dodge, which you constantly complain about, and her strength lets her use weaker weapons without too much of an issue. It is not equivalent to being the best cat, because cats don't do damage. Berserkers are berserkers.

[Shadow Mir]

19 minutes ago, Florina's #1 Fan said:

Except if you took advantage of streetpass and online castle visits, you could get minerals from other castles. And axes, when forged, go up in accuracy first, if not every time. And really, a regular bronze axe lets Charlotte hit, because she won't get criticals at the start anyway, plus it gives her extra dodge, which you constantly complain about, and her strength lets her use weaker weapons without too much of an issue. It is not equivalent to being the best cat, because cats don't do damage. Berserkers are berserkers.

Because those are always options, right? Oh, wait, they aren't. Also, weapons have fixed increases when forging. And the point I hoped to make by comparing Fates Berserkers to RD cats - which I do because I consider them both the worst classes in their respective games - seems to have gone over your head.

Edited September 19, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Florina's #1 Fan]

6 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Because those are always options, right? Oh, wait, they aren't. Also, weapons have fixed increases when forging. And the point I hoped to make by comparing Fates Berserkers to RD cats - which I do because I consider them both the worst classes in their respective games - seems to have gone over your head.

No, it didn't go over my head, I understand your point, I just don't find it valid personally because I don't believe Berserkers are the worst class in the game, whereas Cats are in theirs. But the fixed increases on forges, it is almost always accuracy and might, and I said you don't have to even forge the weapon for her to hit with it, you just drop gamble and give her a bronze axe, you can even pair her up with someone who gives her a skill boost or position a dark mage with heartseeker next to the target, you can give her a rally skill if you have a Bow Knight, it is not hard to train her at all.  If we are still talking about forging, though, the first time you forge a bronze axe, it goes up in accuracy. It's that simple. And in a world where internet and access to technology are at their height, I don't really consider the streetpass/spotpass thing to be out of reach to most, not always available, but to the majority, it's available, which is why it makes more sense to factor it in than to rule it out in its totality.

[Shadow Mir]

3 hours ago, Florina's #1 Fan said:

No, it didn't go over my head, I understand your point, I just don't find it valid personally because I don't believe Berserkers are the worst class in the game, whereas Cats are in theirs. But the fixed increases on forges, it is almost always accuracy and might, and I said you don't have to even forge the weapon for her to hit with it, you just drop gamble and give her a bronze axe, you can even pair her up with someone who gives her a skill boost or position a dark mage with heartseeker next to the target, you can give her a rally skill if you have a Bow Knight, it is not hard to train her at all.  If we are still talking about forging, though, the first time you forge a bronze axe, it goes up in accuracy. It's that simple. And in a world where internet and access to technology are at their height, I don't really consider the streetpass/spotpass thing to be out of reach to most, not always available, but to the majority, it's available, which is why it makes more sense to factor it in than to rule it out in its totality.

Yeah, well, unfortunately, most of the classes that do boost Skill in a pair up happen to be Hoshidan classes... and what's more, even the ones that give the most skill don't do enough to shore it up. Rally Skill is not much help either. On top of that, you're wrong about a +1 Bronze Axe getting an accuracy boost. And if she needs all this help to not be Miss Whiffsalot, I dare say you're trying to bullshit me by trying to say she's not hard to work with.

[Florina's #1 Fan]

7 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Yeah, well, unfortunately, most of the classes that do boost Skill in a pair up happen to be Hoshidan classes... and what's more, even the ones that give the most skill don't do enough to shore it up. Rally Skill is not much help either. On top of that, you're wrong about a +1 Bronze Axe getting an accuracy boost. And if she needs all this help to not be Miss Whiffsalot, I dare say you're trying to bullshit me by trying to say she's not hard to work with.

But she isn't hard to use. And if I'm wrong about the accuracy thing, it's because I haven't played the game in a while, so I apologize, and I said that you don't even need to forge a bronze axe to hit with her, just use a regular bronze axe and drop gamble, she doesn't even need the boosts I talked about, all I meant there was that if it meant so much to you that her hits were as accurate as possible so she could level up and then work on her own, there's plenty of things you can do to help her, though I didn't need any of those things to raise her. If we're talking about Conquest here (which I wasn't aware that we were, I always play Revelations), I just don't see the issue still. Sure she has accuracy issues, but that really doesn't make her unusable like you're making her sound. Just because she starts that way doesn't mean she ends that way, and this is a game based upon RNG, there will be times when, even with her cruddy skill, she'll hit, which will happen more often than not, and with the bronze axe and the drop of gamble, you don't even need to run risks based on the RNG. You can try using her on the level you get her in Conquest, and she is perfectly capable of hitting. It's harder because she's inaccurate, but it isn't that difficult, and with an interest in the character, you can work around her flaws and it will pay off.

I understand you are just convinced that Charlotte should never have existed and that the berserker class is "making a deal with the devil", but I don't think that, and I'm willing to make things harder for myself in a playthrough to use a character I like and I know won't let me down once trained. That's all :| I'm not interested in the technicalities and the initial hit rate problems and the CEv, I just don't care. Charlotte is a great unit that just needs a little handholding for a few levels, and I'm fine with that if it means she turns into a critical-hit machine. I was excited to use her upon her debut, even before the game came out, so I'm biased, but really, everything you have said to me I simply don't agree with. I don't find her too inaccurate for there to be no payoff, I don't care about CEv because she doesn't get countered, I don't care about her fragile defenses because she doesn't get hit that often and has a massive HP cushion. I'm tired of arguing, I just don't see your point and you don't see mine, whatever.

[Shadow Mir]

3 hours ago, Florina's #1 Fan said:

But she isn't hard to use. And if I'm wrong about the accuracy thing, it's because I haven't played the game in a while, so I apologize, and I said that you don't even need to forge a bronze axe to hit with her, just use a regular bronze axe and drop gamble, she doesn't even need the boosts I talked about, all I meant there was that if it meant so much to you that her hits were as accurate as possible so she could level up and then work on her own, there's plenty of things you can do to help her, though I didn't need any of those things to raise her. If we're talking about Conquest here (which I wasn't aware that we were, I always play Revelations), I just don't see the issue still. Sure she has accuracy issues, but that really doesn't make her unusable like you're making her sound. Just because she starts that way doesn't mean she ends that way, and this is a game based upon RNG, there will be times when, even with her cruddy skill, she'll hit, which will happen more often than not, and with the bronze axe and the drop of gamble, you don't even need to run risks based on the RNG. You can try using her on the level you get her in Conquest, and she is perfectly capable of hitting. It's harder because she's inaccurate, but it isn't that difficult, and with an interest in the character, you can work around her flaws and it will pay off.

I understand you are just convinced that Charlotte should never have existed and that the berserker class is "making a deal with the devil", but I don't think that, and I'm willing to make things harder for myself in a playthrough to use a character I like and I know won't let me down once trained. That's all :| I'm not interested in the technicalities and the initial hit rate problems and the CEv, I just don't care. Charlotte is a great unit that just needs a little handholding for a few levels, and I'm fine with that if it means she turns into a critical-hit machine. I was excited to use her upon her debut, even before the game came out, so I'm biased, but really, everything you have said to me I simply don't agree with. I don't find her too inaccurate for there to be no payoff, I don't care about CEv because she doesn't get countered, I don't care about her fragile defenses because she doesn't get hit that often and has a massive HP cushion. I'm tired of arguing, I just don't see your point and you don't see mine, whatever.

Well, I'll grant that a bronze axe might help. However, discounting the ability to grind, I'd say she's even worse off in Revelation than she is in Conquest, and she already has a hellish time there. She has iffy hit rates against nearly everything in her join chapter, to put it into perspective.

Hey, I don't mind going out of my way for a character I like, either - as long as they're not too frustrating to get up to speed, that is. The problem, as I see it, is that Charlotte is a glass cannon in Fates, where defense is more important than ever because evade isn't as reliable as it was in most past installments. And frankly, her class does her no favours either, since it's the one class I find most unreliable. On top of that, I find Berserkers much better as an enemy class than a player class.

Edited September 19, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Tolvir]

Merchant. I never understood the class, its just weird. That and they are annoying as all hell because they hit like trucks for no reason. They are merchants, how the hell is this guy putting arrows through Benny's armor?

Edited September 19, 2017 by Tolvir

[Florina's #1 Fan]

4 minutes ago, Tolvir said:

Merchant. I never understood the class, its just weird. That and they are annoying as all hell because they hit like trucks for no reason. They are merchants, how the hell is this guy putting arrows through Benny's armor?

Because... price cuts.

*Duh dun tss*

[Tolvir]

Just now, Florina's #1 Fan said:

Because... price cuts.

*Duh dun tss*

Should have seen that one coming.

[Moblin Major General]

18 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Discounting the ability to grind, I'd say she's even worse off in Revelation than she is in Conquest, and she already has a hellish time there. She has iffy hit rates against nearly everything in her join chapter, to put it into perspective.

Even Arthur is better in Chapter 14 Rev, as at least Effie's right there next to him, when Benny is across the map from Charlotte. Also, you either have to watch where you put Elise or (more risk to both your units and to Charlotte herself) bait her out.

 

3 minutes ago, Tolvir said:

They are merchants, how the hell is this guy putting arrows through Benny's armor?

Merchants have to protect their goods, protect themselves, and they face *pardon the pun* cutthroat competition. If you aren't strong enough, you could end up dead, or at the very least poor.

[Tolvir]

Just now, Hylian Air Force said:

Even Arthur is better in Chapter 14 Rev, as at least Effie's right there next to him, when Benny is across the map from Charlotte. Also, you either have to watch where you put Elise or (more risk to both your units and to Charlotte herself) bait her out.

 

Merchants have to protect their goods, protect themselves, and they face *pardon the pun* cutthroat competition. If you aren't strong enough, you could end up dead, or at the very least poor.

Thats some Game of Thrones level stuff there. Guess Hoshido is a lot more violent than we thought.

[Florina's #1 Fan]

Just now, Hylian Air Force said:

Even Arthur is better in Chapter 14 Rev, as at least Effie's right there next to him, when Benny is across the map from Charlotte. Also, you either have to watch where you put Elise or (more risk to both your units and to Charlotte herself) bait her out.

Effie can't really protect Arthur on chapter 14, her bases in Revelations aren't very good in comparison to your trained units on that map, both of them are deadweight on chapter 14 in my opinion (Arthur's deadweight the whole campaign, but Effie is so insanely good that it takes only about three or four levels for her to catch up and then some). In Conquest, you can use Charlotte upon recruitment, on Revelations, it's better to train her on those enemies you can spawn on the map with money.

3 minutes ago, Hylian Air Force said:

Merchants have to protect their goods, protect themselves, and they face *pardon the pun* cutthroat competition. If you aren't strong enough, you could end up dead, or at the very least poor.

No need to pardon the pun. Puns are a beautiful thing.

[Shadow Mir]

1 hour ago, Florina's #1 Fan said:

Effie can't really protect Arthur on chapter 14, her bases in Revelations aren't very good in comparison to your trained units on that map, both of them are deadweight on chapter 14 in my opinion (Arthur's deadweight the whole campaign, but Effie is so insanely good that it takes only about three or four levels for her to catch up and then some). In Conquest, you can use Charlotte upon recruitment, on Revelations, it's better to train her on those enemies you can spawn on the map with money.

I really should've asked this earlier, but what difficulty do you play on? Because I play on Hard, and I find Charlotte has iffy hit rates on most everything in her join chapter in Conquest.

[Florina's #1 Fan]

4 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

I really should've asked this earlier, but what difficulty do you play on? Because I play on Hard, and I find Charlotte has iffy hit rates on most everything in her join chapter in Conquest.

Hard mode. Her hit rates are iffy, but I run the risk, and my first Conquest avatar was Skill based, so he gave her a boost. I also knew she was there before I went into the chapter, so I brought a bronze axe with me.

Edited September 19, 2017 by Florina's #1 Fan

[Shadow Mir]

On September 18, 2017 at 5:54 PM, Ether said:

Fighters are still one of the worse classes, sure. But I feel Knights are worse than them, and again, I(and a large section of the player base) value Luck far less than you do. It's fine to place importance on it, but a bad luck stat being an automatic no sell is a sentiment that I haven't seen from anyone else. Granted, I don't really use Arthur, but Charlotte's negatives can be worked around in some degrees, removing gamble straight away is the first thing, her hit can also be improved with Bronze Axes or Brass Clubs if you have access to Hoshidan castles since her Str and Spd are naturally pretty good. In addition, she can promote to Hero if you really hate Berserkers. She's not great, but she's perfectly usable on Normal and Hard, I don't have much experience with Conquest Lunatic.

Basically, fighters don't have to be good to be better than Knights.

Well, it's true that most other people don't view luck in the same light as I do. Though in general, I found knights to have some semblance of short-term use, as opposed to fighters, which tend to struggle on the battlefield because most of them tend to have Strength and HP as their only particularly high stats. It's honestly gotten to the point where when I start having to bench units, Fighters are often the first to go. Even worse for them, Fates actually improved knights (and archers), but Fighters were left out in the cold (which is to say, they didn't get any notable improvements).

23 hours ago, Florina's #1 Fan said:

Hard mode. Her hit rates are iffy, but I run the risk, and my first Conquest avatar was Skill based, so he gave her a boost. I also knew she was there before I went into the chapter, so I brought a bronze axe with me.

Okay then. Outside of getting an Iron Axe for Camilla, I never really saw the need to get a specific weapon for a character who joined in mid-fight. And my worry about hit rates stems more from the fact that in most other FE games, you'd pretty much never expect anything with a hit rate of 90%+ to miss, yet high percent attacks tend to miss waaaaaaay more often in Fates (I've happened to see 2 92's miss consecutively).

Edited September 20, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Florina's #1 Fan]

1 minute ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Okay then. Outside of getting an Iron Axe for Camilla, I never really saw the need to get a specific weapon for a character who joined in mid-fight. And my worry about hit rates stems more from the fact that in most other FE games, you'd pretty much never expect anything with a hit rate of 90%+ to miss, yet high percent attacks tend to miss waaaaaaay more often in Fates (I've happened to see 2 92's miss consecutively).

Fates' RNG is extremely annoying. I got hit with a critical from my brother's Beruka on PVP, and she had about a 5% chance of hitting. Critical hits are calculated in the RNG after hit rates, which means he was so lucky he got the hit and then stacked a crit on top -_-